The whole "raising for information" shebang

I'd respond in a thread, but since this comes up all over the place I figured I'd be efficient and just make a new post:

Betting or raising to "find out where you are", and "hope to take the pot down right now"... I'm thinking that this is such a common sentiment because so many people play mostly tournaments or SnGs, where survival - not chip accumulation - is key.

Winning the pot is second is not important in a cash game; maximizing your expect value is.

Yes?

Pretty much.

I for one can't imagine myself ever playing a rebuy and thinking during the rebuy period "I'm raising to find out where I am" or "I'm raising hoping to take down the pot now", heh. I guess the same is true of cash games to an extent.

Just as every chip we gain has less value than the last in a tournament, every chip we lose has more value than the last. Thus of course, some situations can arise where a certain move is +chip EV but -$EV (especially in highly specialised situations like many SNG bubbles), and a lot of the time this is where raising 'for information' or especially 'hoping to take the pot down' comes from. In a ring game of course chip EV and $EV are one and the same and you're usually all relatively deepstacked (certainly compared to deep in an MTT or SNG), so the above doesn't apply - chip EV = $EV = $$$.

reasons why raising for information is bad:

1) folds out worse hands
2) gives $$$ to better hands
3) we don't know how reliable the info is
4) The info we get is rarely worth the $$ we are paying for it

(check out my "time for you guys to flame me" post for an example, with my reasoning at the end)

dbitel said:

reasons why raising for information is bad:

1) folds out worse hands
2) gives $$$ to better hands
3) we don't know how reliable the info is
4) The info we get is rarely worth the $$ we are paying for it

(check out my "time for you guys to flame me" post for an example, with my reasoning at the end)

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I disagree.

You raise for information when you think you have a good hand but don't know.

If you have middle pair, and you want to continue in the hand (early pos) you have 2 options. If you bet, the other person can regard it as a lot of possibilities. If you check, its a big SIGN of weakness OR trapping, one of the 2 (and if they know you they'll know which)

Once they've shown weakness, they'll bet whatever hand they have and you'll result in folding your middle pair! Simple as that.

By betting for information you are:
1) Putting pressure on weak hands ( a call is weak/draw unless you know the player or pre flop action shows otherwise)
2) Not letting the other player know your hand
3) Giving yourself a more aggressive image which you need for your better hands
4) Betting for information coincides with continuation bets which is needed for any poker player.. bluffing/continuation bets are naturalwhen a raise is used pre flop.

It is essential to bet for information within poker but has to be used in the right place at the right time!

If its mid stages of a tourny.. you have $5000 lets say and blinds are $100/$200.. and someone checks to your middle pair,, i'd bet $300 into an unraised pot as you'll prob win it. If you get called you can then rethink about the hand, and if you get raised you know your behind. By checking your giving up yoru hand completely, which is fine but if you do that too much you're being too tight!

There's a difference between betting for info and raising for info, though.

dbitel said:

reasons why raising for information is bad:

1) folds out worse hands
2) gives $$$ to better hands
3) we don't know how reliable the info is
4) The info we get is rarely worth the $$ we are paying for it

(check out my "time for you guys to flame me" post for an example, with my reasoning at the end)

Click to expand...

By betting for info:

1) Worse hands might still call. ex you have AJ on a J93 flop, you most probably get calls from middle pairs, second pair etc. By raising a bettor in this same spot, you're shutting out those hands.
2,3) relatively the same
4) Definitely worth the $$. 3BBs is much better for info rather than raising a 3BB raise to like 10BB.

MercilessKiller said:

If its mid stages of a tourny..

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I realize you're not replying to me, but you're sort of making my point for me: Betting and raising for "information" is a mindset that tournament players have. My opening post wasn't asking about whether or not raising for info was right or wrong, I was merely making the observation that there's a disconnect in the discussions between what seems to be predominantly cash game players vs. predominantly tournament players and I'm trying to explain to all of you why that is.

Does anyone agree with me, or am I wrong about this?

man the past 3 months i feel like cc has been moving from a sort of dark-ages to its renaissance times. some amazing discussion going on.+++

F Paulsson said:

Does anyone agree with me, or am I wrong about this?

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I think youre right. In tournies, survival and chip accumulation are your targets. In cash, maximizing your EV in every opportunity possible is your MO.

Though this sentence had a typo or whatever, I think it summed it up perfectly:

Winning the pot is second is not important in a cash game; maximizing your expect value is.

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EDIT:

joosebuck said:

man the past 3 months i feel like cc has been moving from a sort of dark-ages to its renaissance times. some amazing discussion going on.+++

Click to expand...

amen

F Paulsson said:

I realize you're not replying to me, but you're sort of making my point for me: Betting and raising for "information" is a mindset that tournament players have. My opening post wasn't asking about whether or not raising for info was right or wrong, I was merely making the observation that there's a disconnect in the discussions between what seems to be predominantly cash game players vs. predominantly tournament players and I'm trying to explain to all of you why that is.

Does anyone agree with me, or am I wrong about this?

Click to expand...

Hmm you also missed my point though. I'm suggesting it is good when used in a good position.

Raising for information is really a tournametn strategy and shouldn't be used in cash games unless a certain sitaution occures where raising for information is also a profitable semi-bluff in the long run.

I play cash and tourny and the differences are absolutely huge. I would never compare startegy really. My entire game is different and while I may make the same moves there's usually a different mentally behind it. People are tighter in cash games thus the flop bet maybe simply a bluff bet to push someone off a pot, when in a tournament it may be a bet for information etc....

Summary: The post below says the same as everyone else I just ramble more


Just to add my agreement that there are massive differences in strategy and tactics between cash and tourney play (and between rebuy and freezeout as noted). This is a subject that I find really interesting and given my barely profitable cash game is the reason why I tend to only comment on tourney posts as I am aware that the subtleties of cash games pass me by. Similarly I've seen succcessful cash players apply +chipEV thinking to tournies in a way that doesn't maximise $.

When chipEV=$EV there can be something approaching a "correct" play that can be demonstrated to be a long-term correct strategy given a certain number of variables being the same. Although there is a broader context in cash games in which each hand takes place, each hand exists as it's own individual game where a player ends the hand with more or less chips than they started and can walk away if they wish.

In tournies it's a lot harder to find these situation as each hand is not a closed game. Success and failure can only be measured at the end of the tourney and long-term $EV can only be measured over hundreds (if not thousands) of tournies.

The upshot as it relates to the orignal post and betting for information is that in a tourney you can make a bet not because you think it's +chipEV but because it's correct to do so in the context of the tournament. It is also sometimes correct to take down a pot rather than give an opponent the opportunity to hit their draw even if in chip terms they are chasing against the pot odds (which is a cash game would be a great +$EV situation) because the risk/reward of the extra chips is not worth busting out a certain % of the time.

Betting/raising for information in tourney is sometimes more to do with a context that is broader than the action and chips in the hand in question and less to do with chip EV.