4 cards of a straight off the flop

RickAversion · Mar 2, 2013

What is the right play when you have 4 cards of a straight off the flop? (eg: 6 7 8 9) 2 cards will hit the straight (5 or 10) Do you stay in trying to get the straight? Or is this a low percentage sucker bet? (odds are, you’ll end up with nothing)

steveiam · Mar 4, 2013

I think you will find there are severall answers to this question, My first thought is unless you already have a 5 or 10 then you proberbly not going to win the hand.

forsakenone · Mar 5, 2013

well, it's kinda hard to have a 4 cards flop, but let's just assume you are on turn and there are 4 cards to a straight. you should bet no matter what you have, if opponent hesitates bet river as well.

If you did the the dummy end of a straight, say you have A5 on 6789, turn comes x, you should check call most of the time, but it depends against who you are.

4 to flush hit the board make sure you bet regardless of what you have.

snklzona · Mar 5, 2013

I may be wrong but I think the question is like this...hero has 78 flop is 96x...thats what I believe they were trying to ask...

RickAversion · Mar 5, 2013

Yes, I meant you have 4 cards of a possible straight. 2 in the flop, and 2 cards you are holding. What is this situation called?

John A · Mar 5, 2013

Open ended straight draw.

coyotegal · Mar 5, 2013

There is a open ended straight draw and an inside straight draw (gutshot)

The open ended is like say you have 67 and there is an 8-9-A on the table, then you need a card to match either end, BUT it's not an optimum situation as you are on the lower end of the draw because if a 10 shows up, you may hit your draw but another player may also have a J

Now lets say you have 89 and there is 67A on the flop, then your chances go up to win if you hit because you have the top end of the draw. The reason it is called open ended is because you need a card on either end to make your straight so one of two cards (5 or 10) will complete your draw... Which gives you more outs than an inside straight draw.(8 outs)
If your going to bid on a straight draw, that is your best best, to be on the top end of it. Also, depends on how aggresive others players on the table after you are...

The inside straight draw is a little harder to hit because you have less outs.
say you have 89 and the board had 56... then you need a 7 so that gives you only 4 outs to hit your draw.
The one card you need is in the middle so you don't have the open ended option that allows more outs.

of course, whether you chase it or not depends on other things too.. like the other people at your table and your position....

I hope this helps.

BlackMoth5 · Mar 6, 2013

I wouldn't chase with it or invest a lot for it. It's a speculative hand so stick around as long as it's not too expensive to stick around!

RickAversion · Mar 9, 2013

Ok, so only chase an open-ended straight draw if it's cheap? Limp in?
What are the odds of hitting an open-ended straight draw on the river or turn?

caintain · Mar 9, 2013

Ladybugger said:
Ok, so only chase an open-ended straight draw if it's cheap? Limp in?
What are the odds of hitting an open-ended straight draw on the river or turn?

don't know the odds but its not a hand you want to chase unless: 1. you have all other players covered 4 to 5 times their all in if it comes to it. 2. you are in position 3. you haven't been caught chasing hands like this earlier in the game...cause if you win and others see you've been chasing hands all game you'll lose table presence and get all bets called no matter what from that point on.

overall its not a draw i check call, or raise with even against a donkey because one small pair beats your draw.

RickAversion · Mar 10, 2013

caintain said:
cause if you win and others see you've been chasing hands all game you'll lose table presence and get all bets called no matter what from that point on..

This was a great point. I will keep this in mind if I ever play in real life. Great way to find out the loose/n00b players who usually have nothing.

ph0n3_j4ck · Mar 10, 2013

open ended straight draws are good to chase depending on the percentages. You probably shouldn't be in a hand with 8/5 and expect to hit a 6 and a 7 though...

kwhilborn · Mar 11, 2013

Nobody has mentioned if your part of the straight is over cards or the low end.

If you are sitting with KQ and the flop drops a 10 J then A 9 are not your only 8 outs. You can also catch a K or Q giving you 14 outs, which might be enough to bet on the turn and see if you can steal the pot with nothing.

If someone hangs around for that and check to you because they are in a calling mood you should likely check yourself and see a free river.

bluffing should be done in heavy moderation in a 10 player table, but if you are not bluffing but drawing then at least you have multiple outs.

Drawing for straights is often painful, so stick to draws when you have the high end. You still have 6 outs with lower end pairs, but I'd rather have QQ at the river than 10 10.

Just a thought.

If I draw on a straight I feel as if I am mostly bluffing, and mostly you are.

micromachine · Mar 12, 2013

Assuming you have to hit your straight to win the hand, and assuming you don't have implied odds (ie villain will shutdown as soon as a possible straight hits), your opponent's bet has to be as small as 1/4 pot or less to give you the pot odds needed to chase your open ended straight draw. Fish will happily call 3/4 pot bets to chase straight draws and it's a big mistake!

Lucothefish · Mar 12, 2013

Technically true micro but SD's are generally more hidden than FD's so the implied odds are often there, calling 1/2 pot bets on the flop with an OESD is often fine especially with position.

I know what you're saying obv, but I think the OP is looking for a rule of thumb to follow and taking your '1/4 pot or fold' out of context could mislead them into some nitty folds.

As for percentages, a clean OESD is 8 outs:

That means you have a 31.5% chance of hitting your straight by the river. Note I said 'clean', because if there's a flush draw on the board as well two of your outs will complete the flush as well as the straight

As kwhilborn said, having overs to the board adds an extra 3 outs per overcard.

Position is god when chasing a draw.
Don't chase the low end of a straight
Don't chase on paired boards
Learn your common outs and common odds and use them all the time

urzana · Mar 12, 2013

I would not pay much to have the Street ...

Rappyness · Mar 12, 2013

I would probably call depending on how much the bet for the turn is. I will definitely chase it if no one is betting and I will start the betting. On the other, if someone bets pot I will probably fold.

micromachine · Mar 12, 2013

Lucothefish said:
Technically true micro but SD's are generally more hidden than FD's so the implied odds are often there, calling 1/2 pot bets on the flop with an OESD is often fine especially with position.

I know what you're saying obv, but I think the OP is looking for a rule of thumb to follow and taking your '1/4 pot or fold' out of context could mislead them into some nitty folds.

As for percentages, a clean OESD is 8 outs:

That means you have a 31.5% chance of hitting your straight by the river. Note I said 'clean', because if there's a flush draw on the board as well two of your outs will complete the flush as well as the straight

As kwhilborn said, having overs to the board adds an extra 3 outs per overcard.

Position is god when chasing a draw.
Don't chase the low end of a straight
Don't chase on paired boards
Learn your common outs and common odds and use them all the time

My '1/4 pot or fold' may be slightly misleading like you said because it ignores implied odds but I think it illustrates how bad chasing draws can be from a purely pot odds point of view.

Thinking you have 31.5% chance of hitting your hand by the river can also be misleading as it assumes that villains wont bet or shove the turn. Safer to calculate your chances of hitting your hand on the next street. I know you get all this anyway, just for the other guys if they are interested

And yes, position is god when chasing draws as you may be able to successfully bluff/semi-bluff your opponent off their hand on a later street if they show weakness by checking.

One more point is that draws should be played aggressively sometimes - beginners often play them far too passively, but you have great equity to raise as a semi bluff.

Lucothefish · Mar 12, 2013

micromachine said:
Thinking you have 31.5% chance of hitting your hand by the river can also be misleading as it assumes that villains wont bet or shove the turn.

Touche!

nkrijeka · Mar 18, 2013

I'll play it if it is cheap. Will check/raise if I hit on turn.

BlackMoth5 · Mar 19, 2013

Lucothefish said:
Technically true micro but SD's are generally more hidden than FD's so the implied odds are often there, calling 1/2 pot bets on the flop with an OESD is often fine especially with position.

I know what you're saying obv, but I think the OP is looking for a rule of thumb to follow and taking your '1/4 pot or fold' out of context could mislead them into some nitty folds.

As for percentages, a clean OESD is 8 outs:

That means you have a 31.5% chance of hitting your straight by the river. Note I said 'clean', because if there's a flush draw on the board as well two of your outs will complete the flush as well as the straight

As kwhilborn said, having overs to the board adds an extra 3 outs per overcard.

Position is god when chasing a draw.
Don't chase the low end of a straight
Don't chase on paired boards
Learn your common outs and common odds and use them all the time

Very nice response! Touche! Btw, where did you find that chart at? I didn't realize the chances of making that hand were as high as 31% when seeing both cards, but it makes sense when getting to see 2 cards rather than just the turn.

bnasp2 · Mar 21, 2013

Its good to add a warning: be very carefull about betting for straight draw, when there is good chance for full house or flush on board. Its called reverse implied odds and it can cost you a lot.

So its often good to semi-bluff with straight draw. Trying to get a pot, but still with good chance to improve hand when someone just calls.

Lucothefish · Mar 21, 2013

BlackMoth5 said:
Very nice response! Touche! Btw, where did you find that chart at? I didn't realize the chances of making that hand were as high as 31% when seeing both cards, but it makes sense when getting to see 2 cards rather than just the turn.

I found the chart on google.

Yeah OESDs and flushes are basically 1 in 3 when you count both turn & river. It's also why in tournament poker you can play your draws aggressively on the flop but not the turn.

aa88wildbill · Mar 21, 2013

If your opponent let's you draw cheap, then go ahead and play. If not fold!

JusSumguy · Mar 21, 2013

If villain has a big hand AK- then the 9 and 7 are outs as well.

14 outs @ 30% turn 15% river.

Turn is a flat to a small bet, fold to a bigun. River isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

-

4 cards of a straight off the flop

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