Ask Mental Game Coach Jared Tendler

DawgBones · Jun 25, 2010

Jared Tendler said:
Hey Dawg!

Nope this hasn't been talked about yet. The first part of your question has to do with the difference between observation and actually doing it yourself. They are fundamentally two different things and observing for many reason is FAR easier. Which means that the degree of knowledge that you have mastered, is much less than you think. When you are struggling to find the line between falling in love and giving too much credit, on a pure poker level this highlights the weaknesses in your skill set, which means you have more work to do to master the knowledge and theory that allows you to make the right decision.

I think the problem that makes this all worse is what you believe or expect yourself to be able to do, because you can see what's going when observing. This has falsely lead you to believe you are capable when its on you to act, that you have mastered more. You know it yes, but that level of knowing is not yet strong enough for it to show up when the pressure is on you to make a decision. Many people don't realize that knowledge and learning is a process, similar to training something physical like a jump shot in basketball or a golf swing. It takes 1000's of repetitions for that technique to become trained to withstand pressure. Mental technique as you have for poker is the same thing, so the simple answer is to keep working, you haven't really mastered or owned what you think. Believe me, this is a problem for many many players so if you can work through this mental error, you're ahead of the game.

Best,
Jared

Thank you for the response Jared. Sounds as though a lot more studying/playing is in order.

okeedokalee · Jun 25, 2010

Thanks for all the informative feed back Jared.
My way of dealing with variance is to have built in boundaries when entering a cash game.I expect to either end the session either x$ in front or X$ behind.
When I'm in a pot with AA or KK one of my expectations is that they can be cracked, if they are the shock factor is less stressful.
I also attempt to retreat before the tilt bites to hard into my bank, ie when the minus boundary is reached, my session is over, hopefully I have realized it is not my day before the boundary limit is reached.
Can these techniques enable me to cope better with the swings and with variance.

ats777 · Jun 25, 2010

Jared Tendler said:
You gave great detail here and because of that (and that you're familiar with my material), I don't have any follow-up questions here. I have a strong sense of the problem.

The bottom line is that results matter because they provide they feedback and feedback is the only way you can learn. Imagine what learning poker would be like without any of the instruction you've been given. That's a form of feedback, and results are another form. The key prinicipal here is the type of results that you're using to evaluate your game. The questions that you're answering from my chapter in Dusty's book is a great start and the fact that you said it's helping says that's it's working. Immediately after saying that you also say that it hasn't removed the desire to check results, which says to me that you were expecting it to be an instant fix. It's not. You have to build up the skill of seeing the results of the quality of your play steadily. It's not going to happen straight away, just as learning poker doesn't happen that quick either.

The other side to this, is also chipping away steadily at the tendency to check results. Going an entire month without check for you is impossible right now. Dusty's advice is sound, but only if you have the capability to do it, and you have to build up to it much like you would build actual muscles. So start with what you can do right now - a baseline - so if you check results 5x a session normally and 10x a session when losing, then the goal is to reduce the frequency steadily. Go to 3x, and 7x; then eventually to doing it once at the end of the session and 1 or 2 on bad session.

In my mind checking results once a month isn't the best thing for everyone. It's a nice idea, but generally it's recommended as a solution for being TOO focused on the money. Of course being too focused on money/results is a problem, but the real question is how do you get to the point where you don't feel like you HAVE to check them. It isn't by just avoiding scratching the itch, it's by giving your mind what it needs - feedback. And by giving it feedback on the quality of how you're playing, what you eventually do is train that skill so much so that you can have a strong sense of how you are playing in real time. Knowing that you are playing well is what you're looking for - that's what you want your confidence to be based on and that how you can know you can play, and knowing it when you're playing.

It's definitely counter-intuitive for a lot of people, does the rationale make sense?

Best,
Jared

Thanks for the great reply Jared. Yes, this rationale does make sense. If I understand correctly, results are important - without results you don't have feedback - and without feedback it is impossible to learn. In order to judge my play, what I need to do is transition from thinking of results as $ Won or BB/100 and instead use questions such as what you wrote in Dusty's book as the basis for assessing the quality of my play. Its not that I won't ever look at the $ Won or BB/100 numbers, but eventually I will get to the point that those numbers will not be determining how I evaluate my play. Eventually, I will use those questions exclusively to decide how well I'm playing. Like you said, I can check results, but don't feel I HAVE to check them to know how my game is progressing.

I say eventually, because you make a great point about it not being an instant fix. I agree that expecting an immediate change is overly optimistic. I am changing a behavior, and that is going to take time. I like the idea of slowly weening myself off the $ results. I can't expect this change to occur overnight. It will be gradual, but once I get to that point, that should allow me to "know" I can play versus whether I "believe" I can play.

Did I get this correct?

What's your feelings about using HEM stats for assessing my play on a session by session basis? Besides answering 5 of your questions, I also record some key stats (ie. VPIP, PFR, 3BET, AF, WTSD, W$SD) from my session. I'm currently using these as a frame of reference to assess my play. Would it be wise to eventually move away from using these as a frame of reference, or can they be used effectively as long as I keep them in context to the lenght of the session. For example, just because all my stats look good it doesn't mean I played well. I think as I'm typing this that eventually I should be using stats to reinforce my thoughts about how I played versus stats influencing my thoughts. Make sense?

Thanks again Jared. Your thoughts are greatly appreciated!

Jared Tendler · Jul 4, 2010

okeedokalee said:
Thanks for all the informative feed back Jared.
My way of dealing with variance is to have built in boundaries when entering a cash game.I expect to either end the session either x$ in front or X$ behind.
When I'm in a pot with AA or KK one of my expectations is that they can be cracked, if they are the shock factor is less stressful.
I also attempt to retreat before the tilt bites to hard into my bank, ie when the minus boundary is reached, my session is over, hopefully I have realized it is not my day before the boundary limit is reached.
Can these techniques enable me to cope better with the swings and with variance.

The simple answer is yes. The more complex answer is that over time the effecitiveness of this strategy is limited. The reason is that you are trying to rationalize a reaction to variance that forces you diffuse the bomb in a sense, and ideally you'd also be trying to remove the underlying reason why variance is a problem for you. The importance of doing that is that it frees up all the focus required to 'manage' the problem and allows you to dive deeper into your ability and become that much better. Your current strategy, is best used primarily in the moment as a way of keeping you playing well - which is great. If used exclusively, you limit how good your mental game can actually be.

If you'd like to address the underlying reason variance is a problem for you, feel free to post more about it.

Jared Tendler · Jul 4, 2010

ats777 said:
Thanks for the great reply Jared. Yes, this rationale does make sense. If I understand correctly, results are important - without results you don't have feedback - and without feedback it is impossible to learn. In order to judge my play, what I need to do is transition from thinking of results as $ Won or BB/100 and instead use questions such as what you wrote in Dusty's book as the basis for assessing the quality of my play. Its not that I won't ever look at the $ Won or BB/100 numbers, but eventually I will get to the point that those numbers will not be determining how I evaluate my play. Eventually, I will use those questions exclusively to decide how well I'm playing. Like you said, I can check results, but don't feel I HAVE to check them to know how my game is progressing.

I say eventually, because you make a great point about it not being an instant fix. I agree that expecting an immediate change is overly optimistic. I am changing a behavior, and that is going to take time. I like the idea of slowly weening myself off the $ results. I can't expect this change to occur overnight. It will be gradual, but once I get to that point, that should allow me to "know" I can play versus whether I "believe" I can play.

Did I get this correct?

Nailed it. Perfectly said, now just work to integrating this into your game - there's a lot of details/specifics for you to experience. Your welcome!

ats777 said:
What's your feelings about using HEM stats for assessing my play on a session by session basis? Besides answering 5 of your questions, I also record some key stats (ie. VPIP, PFR, 3BET, AF, WTSD, W$SD) from my session. I'm currently using these as a frame of reference to assess my play. Would it be wise to eventually move away from using these as a frame of reference, or can they be used effectively as long as I keep them in context to the lenght of the session. For example, just because all my stats look good it doesn't mean I played well. I think as I'm typing this that eventually I should be using stats to reinforce my thoughts about how I played versus stats influencing my thoughts. Make sense?

Thanks again Jared. Your thoughts are greatly appreciated!

I'm familiar with what these stats are, but I'm not comfortable making a recommendation about it. Consider asking a better player/coach you trust. Basically you're looking for reliable feedback and if these stats are reliable measures then, using them makes sense. Even if they can't give you a full picture of your game and you have to evaluate your poker skill another way too, then just use both for what they provide.

YW!

icemonkey9 · Jul 4, 2010

Guys -

I met up two days ago with Jared here for an interview for work. Our interview was fantastic and will air in the next week or two. Afterwards he was gracious enough to give me a session. I genuinely feel like it changed not just my "poker life" but my life - period.

For those of you seeking help, I can only say that Jared is the stone cold nuts.

Debi · Jul 5, 2010

(I met him the same day - he really is a very nice guy and we had a good conversation for a while).

Thanks Jared for the time you have contributed at Cardschat and for helping our members out!

Jared Tendler · Jul 6, 2010

Thanks for the post Sean. Really cice of you to go out of your way to say such great words about me and my work. I had a lot of fun breaking your brain open and I'm really happy to hear the surgery was a success!

Can't wait to see it.

Jared Tendler · Jul 6, 2010

dakota-xx said:
(I met him the same day - he really is a very nice guy and we had a good conversation for a while).

Thanks Jared for the time you have contributed at Cardschat and for helping our members out!

Great having some time with you too Debi. Thanks again for the gift, it's already in my golf bag

Your welcome. I'm happy the arrangement here is working out, and look forward to continuing to help the member's elevate their games even higher.

c9h13no3 · Jul 6, 2010

Dear Abby errrr... Jared,

I've been playing poker for the past 3 years, and recently I've become quite frustrated with the process. I have no patience to ride out variance, and I get bored. I'm also far too comfortable with the game, and find that I get too loose while playing.

I find that when I switch games it helps. I play tighter, and I'm more involved. But I'm running out of games to switch to!

Do you have any advice that will help?

Jared Tendler · Jul 13, 2010

c9h13no3 said:
Dear Abby errrr... Jared,

I've been playing poker for the past 3 years, and recently I've become quite frustrated with the process. I have no patience to ride out variance, and I get bored. I'm also far too comfortable with the game, and find that I get too loose while playing.

I find that when I switch games it helps. I play tighter, and I'm more involved. But I'm running out of games to switch to!

Do you have any advice that will help?

Dear Game Jumper,

You could invent a new form of poker..

Patience happens automatically when a person has a strong knowledge of process for achieving their goals. When you know what you're doing is correct, there's no interference that can sway you, you're automatically patient. I need to know more about your goals before I can help fill in the gaps of what's missing from your process. So what are your goals in the playing poker? Why do you play? What's your interest in the game?

With that I can give you a good answer.

Sincerely,
Abby

Btw, you're the first one to use that reference, loved it!

c9h13no3 · Jul 13, 2010

Jared Tendler said:
So what are your goals in the playing poker? Why do you play? What's your interest in the game?

See that's the thing, I think I just play for fun. I don't have a real strong desire to win a bunch of money, I don't need it. But I think I was having the most fun when I was crushing the game.

So as far as goals, I don't really have any. If I had to attempt a list, it'd be:

-Play low variance enough so that poker stress doesn't affect the rest of my life.
-Play a game that's challenging enough to be fun.
-Make some money (breaking even isn't exactly a blast).

Jared Tendler · Jul 13, 2010

c9h13no3 said:
See that's the thing, I think I just play for fun. I don't have a real strong desire to win a bunch of money, I don't need it. But I think I was having the most fun when I was crushing the game.

So as far as goals, I don't really have any. If I had to attempt a list, it'd be:

-Play low variance enough so that poker stress doesn't affect the rest of my life.
-Play a game that's challenging enough to be fun.
-Make some money (breaking even isn't exactly a blast).

To be honest, I'm not sure what the best step forward is. I mean crushing the game - winning - is fun for anyone, and given that's a priority, it makes sense why you'd jump to a different game when breaking even - it stops being fun.

In looking at your three goals, I'm just not sure how well they all coexist. I mean you can play a low variance style of poker, but you can never eliminate it. If making money is important (not the priority) is it possible to see when variance is against you as times when making money means losing the least amount. Do you think you'd enjoy the challenge posed by variance as being fun - to lose the least amount? Or are you interested in working more on your game, since increasing your edge is another way to reduce variance.

matt20 · Jul 17, 2010

I have some serious tilt/anger issues. A little backstory on myself.. I just turned 19 recently, so I still live in my house with my parents. They pretty much hate gambling, so I feel alot of pressure to show profit everytime I play. I deposited 10$ the first time and ran it up to 996$. I decided to play 50NL HU and took a bad beat with QQ. We were about 200BB deep and got 65ish in pre the flop was 585 and he turned over k5 offsuit (allin on flop). I went beserk and titled off 865$ in hu super turbos both out of anger and trying to get the money back quick to show profit. Also, I have a close friend that I discuss poker with frequently. I always feel super competitive to crush his graphs, so I am always trying to play out of my bankroll to earn more then him. I sort of understand my problems, but I always find myself coming back to the same issues if I am having a losing session or have taken a bad beat. I can say to myself before a session, "poker is for the long run", but as soon as the bankroll takes a dip I just get unbelievably tilted... any ideas on how to help? Thank you.

dg1267 · Jul 17, 2010

matt20 said:
I have some serious tilt/anger issues. A little backstory on myself.. I just turned 19 recently, so I still live in my house with my parents. They pretty much hate gambling, so I feel alot of pressure to show profit everytime I play. I deposited 10$ the first time and ran it up to 996$. I decided to play 50NL HU and took a bad beat with QQ. We were about 200BB deep and got 65ish in pre the flop was 585 and he turned over k5 offsuit (allin on flop). I went beserk and titled off 865$ in hu super turbos both out of anger and trying to get the money back quick to show profit. Also, I have a close friend that I discuss poker with frequently. I always feel super competitive to crush his graphs, so I am always trying to play out of my bankroll to earn more then him. I sort of understand my problems, but I always find myself coming back to the same issues if I am having a losing session or have taken a bad beat. I can say to myself before a session, "poker is for the long run", but as soon as the bankroll takes a dip I just get unbelievably tilted... any ideas on how to help? Thank you.

Not to step on Jared's toes, but I'm learning this right now myself. My advice would be to quit looking at your account. Only look once a week or so. It takes a lot of work to make yourself stop peeking, but it will help you out big time. I've started doing this and I feel a lot better at the end of my sessions when I just close out and don't look (even if I know it was a bad session).

And about striving to make more than someone else... that's not worth worrying about. Stepping outside your limits is a horrible way to do it as well. Don't worry about the $ end as much as you do your ROI (return on investment). You may not make as many $ as he does, but you can still beat him in ROI. Just my thoughts.

bRiMaTiOn · Jul 18, 2010

Do you think poker players should read about poker in their free time? I was thinking it might be making me more stressed.

Jared Tendler · Jul 20, 2010

matt20 said:
I have some serious tilt/anger issues. A little backstory on myself.. I just turned 19 recently, so I still live in my house with my parents. They pretty much hate gambling, so I feel alot of pressure to show profit everytime I play. I deposited 10$ the first time and ran it up to 996$. I decided to play 50NL HU and took a bad beat with QQ. We were about 200BB deep and got 65ish in pre the flop was 585 and he turned over k5 offsuit (allin on flop). I went beserk and titled off 865$ in hu super turbos both out of anger and trying to get the money back quick to show profit. Also, I have a close friend that I discuss poker with frequently. I always feel super competitive to crush his graphs, so I am always trying to play out of my bankroll to earn more then him. I sort of understand my problems, but I always find myself coming back to the same issues if I am having a losing session or have taken a bad beat. I can say to myself before a session, "poker is for the long run", but as soon as the bankroll takes a dip I just get unbelievably tilted... any ideas on how to help? Thank you.

Not checking results is sound advice, but only if you are able to instead focus on a different set of results. The bottom line is that results matter as a means of knowing how you are doing. That becomes the basis of how you're able to compare yourself to your buddy and tell your parents how you're doing. My advice is not to cut yourself off completely from either of them, the motivation from them can be great fuel for you to improve and ultimately win more. The key is that you are focusing this energy more on what you are able to control in the short-term than what you can't.

Part of what makes you go crazy is that you're trying desperately to take control of the outcome, but you're doing it in a way that actually shows you having less control. I wrote a chapter for Dusty's book that you can find here. It outlines how learning can be seen as producing results - ie, that you can measure how much better you are as a player. Something the comparatively is done for you with HEM or the cashier. Your poker stats are calculated for you, so with the learning stats you have to put the time into doing it.

I can't emphasize enough the importance of tracking your learning this way. It helps you to be in control more of what you can actually control, which means you're less focused/pissed off by what you can't. It also helps you to recognize when you played well (very easily) so you know that it was variance that got you and not your skill.

This is counter-intuitive to many players, but if you master this, the changes to how you emotionally handle short-term losses is dramatic.

Jared Tendler · Jul 20, 2010

bRiMaTiOn said:
Do you think poker players should read about poker in their free time? I was thinking it might be making me more stressed.

Every player is different, though every player needs time off - completely off from poker. If you think it's making you stressed, I'd say you answered your own question.

bRiMaTiOn · Jul 21, 2010

ANY OTHER THOUGHTS on how to handle the stress of offline research doctor??

koren · Jul 21, 2010

Welcome to CardsChat Jared......

Jared Tendler · Jul 21, 2010

bRiMaTiOn said:
ANY OTHER THOUGHTS on how to handle the stress of offline research doctor??

What's stressful about it for you? Has it always been that way, or only recently? If recently, what's changed that might be contributing to your stress? Just post some more details and I can give you a good answer.

Jared Tendler · Jul 21, 2010

koren said:
Welcome to CardsChat Jared......

Thanks Koren, welcome to you as well

Pokertron3000 · Jul 21, 2010

Jared we know you worked with LA and we know he has amazing grinding abilities but the where there before you worked together right?

My question is how should a learning poker player structure his playing time, is it like doing weights you do more reps/weight the longer you train, is this how the brain works? Should we be playing shortish sessions to keep us fresh at the start or is grinding for a few hours acceptable.

bRiMaTiOn · Jul 22, 2010

Actually. That little bit helped. Thank you.

Jared Tendler · Jul 26, 2010

Mr McCluskey said:
Jared we know you worked with LA and we know he has amazing grinding abilities but the where there before you worked together right?

My question is how should a learning poker player structure his playing time, is it like doing weights you do more reps/weight the longer you train, is this how the brain works? Should we be playing shortish sessions to keep us fresh at the start or is grinding for a few hours acceptable.

LA had sick grinding skills before we met, and our work built on that. The biggest change was that he no longer needed to take breaks because of tilt - so instead of playing 8hrs of poker spread across the whole day, he could now play one 8hr session straight.

To answer your question - yes the brain does work like muscles, so you can train them in a similar way. Just as muscles can be trained to perform many things, so to can the brain and its your goals that determine how you work out. As it relates to poker, early on I think it's a good thing to mix it up. Use short sessions with few tables to work on your thought process, use long sessions to work on grinding and playing solid poker, etc. Really depends on what you're working towards.

Just remember that the most benefit in terms of training effect that happens when working out occurs when under the toughest circumstances - in the case of weight lifting that's the end of your set. When it's the toughest you have the most to gain. Mentally it's the same way and you have to fight for it, just like you would those last few reps. Then make sure you rest. The adaptations in the brain or in the muscles happens when you rest - the workout is simply saying what you want.

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