Ask Mental Game Coach Jared Tendler

[KingCurtis]

Goals.

Do you think setting goals are good for a poker player? I say that because over the years here at CC I have seen many players, including myself, create goals.

Now many have said there are certain goals that could ruin a poker players month or year, due to the fact that the goal could be interfering with the player thinking about the long term and not the decision at hand in every single hand.

On the other hand some say goals are good, they are a motivator to help the ones who can use the big picture to make the correct decisions in each and every hand.

I made a goal myself this month, half jokingly, but I'm only about 1k away from it, and doing well. Do you think that the right goals depends on the player and mindset?

I appreciate the help and I think that this thread is amazing for anyone who wants to take the time and read it!

 

[Jared Tendler]

I really would like to get something for myself from this thread as reading through it has shown how much of a help you've been to others and I know mental game is perhaps the biggest part of poker. I'm just going to ramble, bear with me.

I feel I'm quite in control of myself when it comes to tilt, I generally don't get affected by suckouts, but do occasional find myself with subtle tilt. This can either be either from winning or losing and I am getting lots better at figuring out when I'm feeling like this. Sometimes this builds though into that slow burn inside you. I can often get stuck say 6 buy-ins, slight tilt is there, I need to leave, but just one more hand.

The biggest contributing factor all this is when I play bad and lose money. Sometimes I can be doing ok, I'm getting unlucky couple coolers and suckouts, I'm down a few buy-ins but the fish are here and I'm playing fairly well. Boom. I just tried a stupid bluff and now I'm down ANOTHER buy-in and it's through a stupid mistake. I can feel it building and now I'm stuck. I can often break this and leave the session, and I don't go on rampage tilt, not for more than one buy-in anyways, and there's no red mist. Just that itch, that feeling in your stomach, the tapping foot, the quicker breathing. Not good.

I often find when I do something that is obvious tilt, like completely spewing pre-flop, I can make myself leave, I know I need to and there's no point playing anymore. I find dealing with the emotion above difficult though. Any techniques or ideas to move past it or avoid it would be amazing. Or techniques to become more aware if it even.

Sorry about the ramble, I wasn't even sure what I was going to say but it came out ok. I haven't even mentioned my extreme laziness when it comes to playing poker, maybe we can go over that another time haha, it would benefit every area of my life lol. Thanks again.

It did come out ok, I have a solid sense of what the problem/solution his here.

The main reason why you would describe tilt as subtle is because at this point that subtle stuff isn't known that well to you. I'd imagine that just writing this post help you to make the subtle build up of frustration from losing more known to you. As a first step towards becoming more aware of it, I suggest taking regular notes on these subtle signs of tilt. This way when you're playing, you can more rapidly realize that tilt is rising and you can work to remain in control.

So you increase your knowledge of tilt, and then once you spot those signs in a session, take a few deep breaths to calm your anger a bit, and create some mental space to Inject Logic. Injecting logic basically means that you are reading or saying a statement that will help you to remain in control. Something that directly attacks the cause of your tilt is ideal. My sense is that losing is what cause frustration. Which means you could remind yourself about the realities of poker/variance, or to keep focusing on what you control - how well you play, etc. Something that can remind you of a stronger way of thinking.

What is key is that you Inject Logic at the earliest sign of tilt. If you let it go too long, the increased emotion will have already shut off your ability to think and regaining control at that point is very difficult because you can't think well.


As for your motivation problems, make this a goal - improving your tilt, and work hard at it. Taking more control of your game is a great way to increase motivation. It won't cure it, but it could be a step in the right direction for both probs.

All make sense?

Best,
Jared

 

[Jared Tendler]

Thank you for responding. I've read and re-read your response and I'll try my best to provide the detail your asking.


I'm not sure I can accurately express why I feel cursed. I can state emphatically that this is an occasional problem and given time I can remind myself that I am a winning player from a profit perspective.
You asked me about specific things I said during my blow up last week and aside from a long random string of expletives I don't believe I said anything in particular towards my feelings. I was really just beside myself with the number of beats I absorbed over the last few days. In my head I'm wondering a combination of how someone could make such a dumb call and asking myself if I should be more conservative with only a 70% chance of doubling up. I feel I deserve, based on quality decisions, to have quality results. I feel duped and swindled when I suffer a bad beat. I have not placed in the money in my last 17 tournaments.


Only as an example I will share my very last beat which was me with JJ and I lose to QJ after hitting trips on the turn. A 95% shot of winning that hand with one card to go and naturally when the second queen hits on the river... how can he have a boat? Odds are so improbable.


Now in and of itself one bad beat does not bother me but I convince myself (sometimes rightly, sometimes wrongly) that I could review the bad beats and win some kind of award for them.


But it's more than that. I play an aggressive game but not a loose one. In micro's small balling gets almost zero respect so when I have a 65-70% shot post flop and I know they will ship it with that inside straight draw I can learn to live with those beats. The ones I have trouble with is when I re-raise all in with qq with the second largest stack and the biggest stack insta calls with k-3 off and hits a king or when I have Aces and call someone else's all in. They show Q-rag and hit two pair etc... Again they seem to come in bunches and this has been a bad month. Lifetime however I show a profit on these tournaments. Last month my ROI was around 80% so why can I not focus on that?


I think one of the reasons is my understanding of some of the odds and how some of these bad beats can be so unlikely and yet they come in such long strings.


Maybe I don't truly appreciate how odds work. Maybe if I understood it better... nah... I just get really irate when people make calls that are so out of line of even basic logic.


You asked me about warning signs so I sat down today as I suffered a bad beat and tried to recognize any. Mostly I get a shortness of breath and a dread of seeing cards come down as the suck out continues. I say the f word under my breath once or three times and need to stand up and walk away from the screen. I get some but not a lot of adrenaline but definitely more than I should and I do not know where to direct it. I get extra mad at myself during these times if I make a bad enough mistake to knock me out of a tournament.
I fully recognize also that I've much to learn about my style of play. I know there are trouble points that lead me into these situations.


I'm going to cut myself off here. It's a long answer and maybe I'm going down the wrong path. I feel in answering that I'm basically just complaining about my string of bad luck and not getting anywhere with it but maybe you can provide me with some more insight.


Thank-you so much for taking the time and trouble to read over this. If you can help me get over my bad mood after a bad session my girlfriend will be very happy not to mention myself.

Holy shit! I'm really sorry for taking so long to reply. I totally lost track of this thread with all I have going on. I certainly don't hope these issues are still as relevant for you, but if they are, here are some thoughts for you:



As with many issues, it sounds like there are several sides to the problem, some bigger than others.

1) In the moment you forget about your overall ROI during a bad month. As it often happens when on a slide players focus much more on poor results and lose that longer-term perspective that if known better, would automatically keep your emotions in check.

2) Getting irate when players make calls so out of line with basic logic, is the next layer. I'd ask yourself more closely why it is this bothers you, clearly it's one of the main reasons why you're able to have an 80% ROI, so why would you want them to be making logical decisions?

3) You mentioned it briefly, but it sounds like you're also not happy when you make mistakes as your emotions are rising. Keep in mind that when emotions start to rise, you have to work hard to keep them in check, otherwise mistake become far more likely as you begin to lose mental functioning. I wrote an article recently for WPT magazine where I outlined a strategy (at the end) for managing emotions better called "Injecting Logic." Recognizing the build up of frustration is key so you can use this, because once your emotions rise too high, your ability to think drastically reduces.


Does all this makes sense/help?

Best,
Jared

 

[Jared Tendler]

I knew there was something I forgot to do! Sorry for taking so long to reply

I think you are 100% correct; whenever I play a game I go over what happened and if ran really well I rarely, if ever, consider the fact that I had good variance.

I've been thinking that for me to become stronger in this regard I should study the math behind the game more so that I am more aware when I'm getting good/bad variance. This will allow me to be able to critical analysis if I'm running good or not. If the game is important to me afterwards I should go over what happened; for example, I got better than average hands, won more flips than lost, made good reads against this player, double barreling didn't work against this player and try to deduce why etc. Hopefully this will give me a more objective viewpoint that will help me control tilt and give me a better understanding of table dynamics

The best I've came up with after a week or so is "objective scrutiny" or "objective awareness; they're fairly self explanatory but not creative. I've been thinking making it a 3 letter name and make each letter= one of the skills; for a rather bad example, "SAV", where S=scrutiny, A=awareness and V=variance or maybe "EIV-aware", where E=externally, I=internally and V=variance(this would have to be a different word though, variance aware doesn't sound correct)

To be frank I don't think my suggestions are particularly good but maybe they'll inspire some better ideas.

Now it's my turn to appologize for taking so long, lol.

The bolded statement above says it all to me, and I guess it's hit home for you. Since it's been a few months since our exchange, how has your progress been with this.

Thanks for the thoughts on a name. You have given me some ideas, can't say mine are any better than yours, but when I come up with something post worthy, I'll send them your way.

 

[Jared Tendler]

Goals.

Do you think setting goals are good for a poker player? I say that because over the years here at CC I have seen many players, including myself, create goals.

Now many have said there are certain goals that could ruin a poker players month or year, due to the fact that the goal could be interfering with the player thinking about the long term and not the decision at hand in every single hand.

On the other hand some say goals are good, they are a motivator to help the ones who can use the big picture to make the correct decisions in each and every hand.

I made a goal myself this month, half jokingly, but I'm only about 1k away from it, and doing well. Do you think that the right goals depends on the player and mindset?

I appreciate the help and I think that this thread is amazing for anyone who wants to take the time and read it!

KC - as I've said to the other two posters whom I inadvertently neglected, my bad. Hopefully my comments are still relevant for you and that you'll accept my apology for taking so long.

Setting goals is not something that every poker players need to do, but for those who struggle to achieve the results they want, lose motivation easily, have trouble focusing, quit at first sign of trouble, struggle with procrastination, boredom, and many other issues related to goals they can be very helpful.

Subconsciously it's actually impossible not to have goals. We all have motives, or things that we're driven by. Even people who don't want to do anything are motivated to not do anything. Really a goal is just a person/player consciously stating what there motives are. The benefit is that it focuses you on the things that matter most to accomplishing what you want, so on a day-day basis you can make decisions easier. If you're motivated to play at a higher limit, and you know you need to improve and build a bankroll, having that goal stated makes it easier to not go out with friends for the 3rd time that week, or avoid watching too much TV, or any other things that would distract you from what you need to accomplish the goal. Of course, taking time to enjoy your life is important, but there's a balance that's important to achieving any goal.

In poker, if you have things you want to accomplish in the long-run, often times they don't translate into action because they are so far away. They need to be broken down into smaller chunks so on a day-day basis you know specifically what you need to be doing to achieve your end goal.

It's also important for your goals in poker to be primarily on things you control. Setting money goals is fine as long as you balance it out with 3 or 4 specific things you'll do to accomplish the money goal. This way if you do all 3 or 4 but fall short on money (because of variance) the month wasn't a failure at all.


I'm glad you found the thread really helpful - were these comments?

 

[pat3392]

Heh time goes so fast at times

Been going fairly hardcore at poker, playing about SnG 1000 online games per month + live + cash + lots of study. In this time I've experienced some pretty sick downswings(one was particularly brutal, made me feel down and I didn't play for a whole 2 days, lol) + some pretty great up swings. These experiences have taught me a lot about variance. As playing live was the original issue, I don't think it effects me much anymore. People try telling me that I'm terrible/ can't play and I'm starting to find it amusing as I am much more certain what I'm doing is correct + they are playing back at me majorly early because I'm "always" bluffing and they do such horrid plays in the meantime(they yet realise I play differently short stacked compared to deep) + I'm making people feel super uncomfortable when we get into fun push/fold mode and hence, they give of sooo many tells, which allows me to push even lighter since I can tell when they will fold, making them more frustrated and give of even more tells, love this cycle.

Anyway, I still remember what you said. I'm slowly becoming more content with myself, not taking things too personally nor expecting myself to perform perfectly. More try my best, learn from my mistakes and move on, dwelling on mistakes + getting worked up if I'm making mistakes is definitely -EV.

I have a minor issue with tilt when playing online. If I'm playing 20 games or something and keep losing all-ins I start to think that the next all-in I'll lose as well. Pretty sure it's a normal psychological thing though. I don't think it effects my play that much, I no longer have a fear of busting and if I believe it's the best play according to preconceptions I'll do it regardless, but it is causing me to divert my attention to unnecessary things. Probably something that I'll grow out of

btw, like reading your blog on Drag The Bar, words of wisdom there

 

[TheKAAHK]

Hello Jared!

Before I get into my question, I'm going to start with a little of my mental background and history.

I used to tilt like a mother******. I mean bad. I would get so frustrated with outcomes that I would purposely play horribly, making spite calls and huge raises just to make myself feel better. Though that worked in the short term, my bankroll took a major beating. This was years ago. Then I started to take more time for study and reflection and my tilt became less and less of an issue.

Over the past two years I have gone through major changes in my life, most notably getting married, buying a home an most tecently, quitting marijuana and changing my diet and lifestyle. I guess you could say I "grew up". After all these changes went into effect, I found myself with much greater mental clarity and reduced stress, both on and off the tables.

Now, I have learned that in order to play my best, I need to have clear mental focus, and cleaning up my lifestyle has definitly helped that tremendously. I look back to the days when I used to go ballistic over being sucked out on, or busting on the bubble and think "Wow, how foolish was I?" I now take the time to study my sessions and if I see that I made the best decision possible at the time, I'm ok with the result, whatever it may be. If I misplayed the hand/situation, then I learn why, and make a note of it so I can try and not repeat it again. Since taking on this new mental approach, I have been playing better than I ever thought possible. I am a winning player for the first time ever.

Lately, in the past month or so, I have been playing with a sense of detachment. That is to say, I do not get upset over outcome or results, not do I worry about losing buy-ins. I use the mantra "Shit happens. I did my best, and it is what it is."

So, after all this rambling, you're probably wondering what my problem could be. Well, my problem is this detachment. While it helps me play optimally, I find myself almost being too detached, and I begin to lose the desire to really 'go for it'. It's almost like I care too little...

So my question is: How do I remain unattached to result, without losing my desire to really make my mark in a tourney?

I have heard the saying "He just wanted it more." said about players in sports in correlation with them winning a championchip or something. don't get me wrong, I want it, and I want it bad, but when I'm playing, I sometimes seem to have a "meh" attitude. How do you recommend I overcome that?

 

[belerophon]

Thanks for responding Jared, I had forgotten about this thread myself so no worries. I'm really grateful for the opportunity to talk about my tilt issues.

At the moment I'm attending college full time so I don't spend too much time reflecting on my game. The tilt beast is asleep for the moment. As I've said earlier, in other aspects of my life this doesn't appear so I find it disturbing and something I need to understand if I want to keep poker as a hobby.

I also will take your advice and hold on to it for later.

I will tell you I recently picked up Dusty's book TYPLAB and I am finding one of the most helpful parts of the book to be the work you put into helping Dusty with what sounds like a very similar problem as mine. Only I can't afford to break my pc's. lol

I plan to put into effect some of yours and Dusty's advice when I get back into poker more regularly. In the meantime I'm playing only in the team league here which is helpful and fun and the occasional SnG.

I try very hard to remain unfocused on the results and try to turn my first thoughts to my own play.

Thanks again, and thanks to everyone here for sharing their psychological issues. It's a goldmine of information for helping me with my game.

 

[Poker Orifice]

I still haven't posted anything in this thread but I have been following it quite a bit.
I really appreciate that you're here on the CC forum Jared! Very cool!

No doubt that emotions are a f'n huge challenge for me. I don't think I ever let tilt affect my play but for sure I do get out of joint when on a downswing (way too much so.... as if I expect to win all the time which is obviously totally irrational). To the degree where it feels like I prefer it if I've been outplayed or have gotten it in bad (MTT & SNG/MTT play for me), over getting donked by some fish who's gotten it in terribly (I'm supposed to like them... yah.. I realize this, lol). I KNOW this is completely the opposite of how I should be thinking/feeling & although it has gotten better, I'm still a long ways from where I'd like to be.

tks for bein' part of this forum

 

[ph_il]

I've been playing online poker for over 4 years now and I like to think that I have improved significantly over the years, but I don't feel like I'm at the same level as those on here who have been around since I've joined. It seems like so many members have these great accomplishments under their belts and other members seem to do it consistently, but I don't feel that way about myself.

I know it's wrong but I am constantly comparing myself to other members on here. I basically put myself on life tilt every time I read the BBV and see a known member take down a big MTT or whatever. It tilts me because it's a constant reminder that in my 4+ years of playing, I haven't achieved anything. And yet so many around me have achieved so much while being on this forum. So, I begin to question myself both as a player and a member of this forum. I've never thought of myself as great player, but what if I'm just that bad/unlucky? I mean, I know not everyone is going to be a winner and there has to be a ton of losers in the game. I often question whether or not it would be foolish for me to continue if I feel like I'm going to be nothing but a constant loser at this game and I'll be doing is setting myself up for more stress and failures. As for being a member, I personally feel like I've distanced myself from the members (loyalers). All of the other loyalers have done something great and can contribute to the forums, but I don't feel like I am not at the same level and so, I don't feel like I have much to contribute anymore...other than just random post to random threads. I don't have the same drive I did when I first joined.

To be honest, I have no idea what I'm asking here. I wonder if I should continue even playing even though this game and being a member is constantly frustrating me. I don't like failing and that is exactly how I feel right now. A failure. I've said it in other threads, I don't care about getting rich with poker or whatever, I just want to feel like I've accomplished something. That all these years of playing, beats, frustrations, close calls, etc have been for something. But, I just don't see that happening anymore....

Should I just give up and come to terms that it's very likely I'll never achieve this goal? I know for a fact that if I quit, I would have to quit this forum as well...which is something I would honestly hate to do. Or do I keep trying and keep hoping and (probably) keep failing? Everyone keeps saying 'Keep trying, one day it'll happen....'

 

[fletchdad]

Hi Jared,


This will be 2 story’s.


Story 1

As some others here, I have Dusty’s book, and liked it a lot. And I really liked your input. I already had a plan consisting of short, medium and long term goals. I have been working on and revising a plan to move slowly into semi-pro play, and have been working on this plan for about 7 months now. By semi-pro, I mean grinding out lo to mid stake MTT games, with the intention of making a small side income. I have just taken the step "Get a coach" (from DTB BTW) which was on my list right after "Move up in stakes" I was not going to get a coach in micro. I am still in low stakes, even tho I can play some higher stakes as far as my BR goes, but part of my plan is to make these advancements gradually, and keep reviewing and observing how I react to new stakes, and how able I am to adjust. As the stakes get higher, I will see new weaknesses and leaks, and want to take it slow enough to make my "rise" in the classic way, one small step at a time. I have been real serious, and honest and humble in my approach. I have been dedicating a minimum of 30 hours a week for a while, with 40+ hours a week minimum in my schedule to start in January next year. One part of my plan involves a certain amount of money put aside especially for this plan, and should it be gone someday, then it was not meant to be. But the BR I put aside is a realistic amount which I would manage with good BRM and going up/down in stakes as the situation dictates. I play low stakes and could from my BR actually step up a bit, but I feel I am where I need to be, and that is OK. The one change I need to make now is the amount I play compared to study, I have actually been doing non playing things about half of my poker time.


Story 2:


I have been a professional musician for over 30 years. I dont want to go into details here, but the short version is, I will not be able to practice my trade for at least 9 months, maybe a year or more, I cant say at the moment. I have to see how thing develop, and it is probable, pretty much expected, that I will be able to get back into in at some point, I just cant say when. But my opportunity to make money as a musician the way I have done for 30+ years is now not available to me. I know people will be naturally curious as to why, and I would rather keep that private, (if you think that would be important info that you want before replying, let me know and I can PM) but the effect is the same regardless of cause. The loss of income will be a severe blow to my family. I am married and have children.


It looks like poker may be one of the only chances I have to make money. And this has shattered my confidence. I had the option to take it easy, to learn at my own pace, I was really so confidant I would reach my goals. No, confidant is not the word, I KNEW I would. And now since I am thinking about this whole situation, all I can see are red „FAIL“ lights flashing. And I cant play in that state of mind. I am a relatively new player – maybe 1 year of serious playing, I am not all that experienced, in low to mid stakes, much less in the higher than mid stakes. I all of a sudden feel pressured to play and win, and that scares me. Now after a decent successful half year of improving, winning more, moving up and seeing it be good, now I am afraid to play. Afraid to let my family down even more. A few weeks ago I was „I am gonna make this work“ But I was thinking in maybe 6-12 months time, and then only a supplemental income which would be ok no matter how minimal. Now I am really spinning in circles and don’t know what to do.


To be honest, I feel that my grasp on the game and my ability to understand the nuances and ability to focus on each situation and make good decisions have all been improving in a way to make me confidant I can get there. („There“ being higher volume playing with an acceptable ROI to make it eventually a decent side income) But this pressure has swooped in and in an instant totally destroyed this really high confidence I had, just a short time ago.


I am going to give it a shot. I have a decent, not incredibly large, BR, money that was planned for my poker plan anyway. My wife was incredibly supportive through this, and she has stood by as I played, reviewed, read books, made charts, watched vids – and took a few tourney down – but she is now in panic mode as well. And to be honest, that makes me even more scared of failure. And this fear of failure is making me scared to play at all right now. She does, however, think I should give it a shot cause I need to do something. I am a foreigner here and only have papers that allow me to work in the music industry, so I cant do some stupid job like sorting letters in the post office or whatever, and a number of other jobs would be logistically impossible anyway. And I have been my own boss for over 30 years, so I dont know how well I would mentally adapt to having a boss in some menial job, but since I dont have a choice, its a moot point.,


Its all a pretty new situation.


I feel a bit weird posting this here, but I am gonna try to make poker work now, and i need to battle this fear so it does not tilt me in ways I don’t know how to combat, cause fear of failure was never an issue before.



I do feel strange laying my life open like this. I may regret it tomorrow, but I don’t know how to deal with this new pressure. And I am gonna do this, so I need all the help I can get. So I am pushing „Submit Reply“ then its posted. For better or worse.........

 

[PNJs_dad]

I do feel strange laying my life open like this. I may regret it tomorrow, but I don’t know how to deal with this new pressure. And I am gonna do this, so I need all the help I can get. So I am pushing „Submit Reply“ then its posted. For better or worse.........

Fletchdad...I know you posted this for Jared but I just want to thank you for posting. I truly wish you and your family well. I have had you at my table several times now and I know you are one to watch. I always consider you one of the players that are ON at all times. Unlike me who plays like a beast only in spurts LMAO. Just remember...in the end things will work out as they were meant to anyway. Don't place too much pressure on yourself. Good luck on the tables. I always like to see players with dad in there name do well.

 

[MrEpic94]

hi Jared,

one question, not sure if its already been answered;

Do you advocate taking a break after a big win/winning day? I find that the day after a very succesfull day I tend to have a really crappy day at the tables as I feel a wee bit invinvible and make some really poor plays.

Any suggestions on how to fix this?

 

[Tangerine 53]

Fletchdad...I know you posted this for Jared but I just want to thank you for posting. I truly wish you and your family well. I have had you at my table several times now and I know you are one to watch. I always consider you one of the players that are ON at all times.

Fletchdad I'd echo what PNG says. From what I've seen on these forums you're one of the best posters on here so I truly hope that this works out for you. And if you've prepared as diligently as you say you have then I see no reason why you can't make a success of a semi pro career. Good luck on the tables to you.

 

[pat3392]

heh Jared has his work cut out for him. @fletchdad quite a story. I'm by no means a fantastic player, but my hourly is at $18. If you'd like, I could check out some HH with you, see if I could spot some leaks etc

 

[LuckyChippy]

It did come out ok, I have a solid sense of what the problem/solution his here.

The main reason why you would describe tilt as subtle is because at this point that subtle stuff isn't known that well to you. I'd imagine that just writing this post help you to make the subtle build up of frustration from losing more known to you. As a first step towards becoming more aware of it, I suggest taking regular notes on these subtle signs of tilt. This way when you're playing, you can more rapidly realize that tilt is rising and you can work to remain in control.

So you increase your knowledge of tilt, and then once you spot those signs in a session, take a few deep breaths to calm your anger a bit, and create some mental space to Inject Logic. Injecting logic basically means that you are reading or saying a statement that will help you to remain in control. Something that directly attacks the cause of your tilt is ideal. My sense is that losing is what cause frustration. Which means you could remind yourself about the realities of poker/variance, or to keep focusing on what you control - how well you play, etc. Something that can remind you of a stronger way of thinking.

What is key is that you Inject Logic at the earliest sign of tilt. If you let it go too long, the increased emotion will have already shut off your ability to think and regaining control at that point is very difficult because you can't think well.


As for your motivation problems, make this a goal - improving your tilt, and work hard at it. Taking more control of your game is a great way to increase motivation. It won't cure it, but it could be a step in the right direction for both probs.

All make sense?

Best,
Jared

It's been a while, I admit I forgot about the thread as I'm not in this sub forum too often, but thanks a lot for answering my question.

Yes what you've said does make sense and even in this short space of time I feel I have come to notice the beginnings of tilt even better. I think the first signs I have noticed are things like raising KJo or A9o UTG (6-max) which for my games/skill level is currently -EV (as standard). When I notice myself doing it, I've started to say to myself, you know you shouldn't be doing that, stop it. I think this is what you were suggesting. Noticing I am doing something that is affected by tilt, and making a statement to myself about it involving logic and good poker.

I also begin doing things like raising the button with hands that aren't good for the spot, "just cause" and saying to myself, "No I shouldn't raise this hand there because of x" is enough to reign me back in. I think now that after I recognise I'm making those "small" mistakes that if I continue to make them then I am on tilt and should end my session.

I suppose the fact that I am easy with variance and that I HATE making mistakes more than anything is probably a good thing in poker, I just need to increase my control of both.

My current motivation in poker is to think logically about every one of my actions, to take the time to think through tough decisions when necessary and to never make a decision without thinking. I want to follow certain rules such as what I open, where and against what opponents to make sure I am making sound +EV decisions.

Thanks for your time, just thinking about and writing out these thoughts has helped me greatly.

 

[Jared Tendler]

Heh time goes so fast at times

Been going fairly hardcore at poker, playing about SnG 1000 online games per month + live + cash + lots of study. In this time I've experienced some pretty sick downswings(one was particularly brutal, made me feel down and I didn't play for a whole 2 days, lol) + some pretty great up swings. These experiences have taught me a lot about variance. As playing live was the original issue, I don't think it effects me much anymore. People try telling me that I'm terrible/ can't play and I'm starting to find it amusing as I am much more certain what I'm doing is correct + they are playing back at me majorly early because I'm "always" bluffing and they do such horrid plays in the meantime(they yet realise I play differently short stacked compared to deep) + I'm making people feel super uncomfortable when we get into fun push/fold mode and hence, they give of sooo many tells, which allows me to push even lighter since I can tell when they will fold, making them more frustrated and give of even more tells, love this cycle.

Anyway, I still remember what you said. I'm slowly becoming more content with myself, not taking things too personally nor expecting myself to perform perfectly. More try my best, learn from my mistakes and move on, dwelling on mistakes + getting worked up if I'm making mistakes is definitely -EV.

I have a minor issue with tilt when playing online. If I'm playing 20 games or something and keep losing all-ins I start to think that the next all-in I'll lose as well. Pretty sure it's a normal psychological thing though. I don't think it effects my play that much, I no longer have a fear of busting and if I believe it's the best play according to preconceptions I'll do it regardless, but it is causing me to divert my attention to unnecessary things. Probably something that I'll grow out of

btw, like reading your blog on Drag The Bar, words of wisdom there

It does go by fast! I've been very busy finishing up my book, which I'm excited to say is in the final stages now.

Great to hear your doing really well, and enjoying dishing out mental torment now. As for the minor tilt thing - the mind has the power to predict the future. It is influenced heavily on recent events, and I think can be nipped by just reminding yourself of the bigger picture rather than getting too caught up by recent events.

Thanks for good words about my blog! I'll be posting a series on making New Year's resolutions stick there next week. Yes a little late - but it's good for just accomplishing goals in general.

 

[Jared Tendler]

Hello Jared!

Before I get into my question, I'm going to start with a little of my mental background and history.

I used to tilt like a mother******. I mean bad. I would get so frustrated with outcomes that I would purposely play horribly, making spite calls and huge raises just to make myself feel better. Though that worked in the short term, my bankroll took a major beating. This was years ago. Then I started to take more time for study and reflection and my tilt became less and less of an issue.

Over the past two years I have gone through major changes in my life, most notably getting married, buying a home an most tecently, quitting marijuana and changing my diet and lifestyle. I guess you could say I "grew up". After all these changes went into effect, I found myself with much greater mental clarity and reduced stress, both on and off the tables.

Now, I have learned that in order to play my best, I need to have clear mental focus, and cleaning up my lifestyle has definitly helped that tremendously. I look back to the days when I used to go ballistic over being sucked out on, or busting on the bubble and think "Wow, how foolish was I?" I now take the time to study my sessions and if I see that I made the best decision possible at the time, I'm ok with the result, whatever it may be. If I misplayed the hand/situation, then I learn why, and make a note of it so I can try and not repeat it again. Since taking on this new mental approach, I have been playing better than I ever thought possible. I am a winning player for the first time ever.

Lately, in the past month or so, I have been playing with a sense of detachment. That is to say, I do not get upset over outcome or results, not do I worry about losing buy-ins. I use the mantra "Shit happens. I did my best, and it is what it is."

So, after all this rambling, you're probably wondering what my problem could be. Well, my problem is this detachment. While it helps me play optimally, I find myself almost being too detached, and I begin to lose the desire to really 'go for it'. It's almost like I care too little...

So my question is: How do I remain unattached to result, without losing my desire to really make my mark in a tourney?

I have heard the saying "He just wanted it more." said about players in sports in correlation with them winning a championchip or something. don't get me wrong, I want it, and I want it bad, but when I'm playing, I sometimes seem to have a "meh" attitude. How do you recommend I overcome that?

Hi!

I'm really glad you posted your question, because I've seen it happen t a bunch of players and in my experience it happens as a consequence of trying to block out negative emotions. Blocking out the negative reactions has help you make major improvements, the problem is blocking out emotion is at best a short, not long term solution. The long term solution is resolution of the underlying causes of your anger. When you resolve emotion, it no longer shows up. Whatever would tilt the shit out of you before, can happen and you don't react at all. Resolution is the solution to emotion, and that happens when you correct the flaw that's causing it.

Given what you've said, I'm certain that some of it has been taken care of by "growing up" as you put it, but what remains is forcing you to block out the negative emotion and it's taking the positive emotion along with it.

I'd suggest 2 things:

1) After your sessions vent in writing about the signs of anger that you experience in the sessions now, and let me know some of the specifics that are coming up. Then I can help you to break the underlying problem down.

2) Set goals. Define why you want your goals. Identify "conflict" goals that would take motivation away from what you really want to achieve in poker.

The reason I mention the goals/motivation stuff is that it's possible all of your tilt/anger probs have been solved and as a back-up you can look at the clarity of what you're trying to achieve in poker.

I know I said this after the last round of replies - I promise to be on here more, just been a really busy time.

Best,
Jared

 

[Jared Tendler]

I still haven't posted anything in this thread but I have been following it quite a bit.
I really appreciate that you're here on the CC forum Jared! Very cool!

No doubt that emotions are a f'n huge challenge for me. I don't think I ever let tilt affect my play but for sure I do get out of joint when on a downswing (way too much so.... as if I expect to win all the time which is obviously totally irrational). To the degree where it feels like I prefer it if I've been outplayed or have gotten it in bad (MTT & SNG/MTT play for me), over getting donked by some fish who's gotten it in terribly (I'm supposed to like them... yah.. I realize this, lol). I KNOW this is completely the opposite of how I should be thinking/feeling & although it has gotten better, I'm still a long ways from where I'd like to be.

tks for bein' part of this forum

Yw! Cool of you to say, glad you're getting a lot out of the thread.

I get what you're saying - if you lost because you deserved it (getting outplayed) it's easier to swallow than losing because of variance. Sure it's irrational because of the realities of variance, but really learning the realities of variance can help eliminate this reaction. Poker is unlike any other form of competition that I can think of. Poker players are more like slot machines or casinos than athletes. I'm pretty sure casino bosses are happy when the fish i the casino win jackpots - maybe that's a stretch for you, but really by wanting to win all the time, you're basically suggesting that variance shouldn't exist. Embrace it more, and it's easier to embrace the more you really understand it - not just on the surface, obvious stuff.

Just a few thoughts that came to mind reading your post -

 

[Jared Tendler]

I've been playing online poker for over 4 years now and I like to think that I have improved significantly over the years, but I don't feel like I'm at the same level as those on here who have been around since I've joined. It seems like so many members have these great accomplishments under their belts and other members seem to do it consistently, but I don't feel that way about myself.

I know it's wrong but I am constantly comparing myself to other members on here. I basically put myself on life tilt every time I read the BBV and see a known member take down a big MTT or whatever. It tilts me because it's a constant reminder that in my 4+ years of playing, I haven't achieved anything. And yet so many around me have achieved so much while being on this forum. So, I begin to question myself both as a player and a member of this forum. I've never thought of myself as great player, but what if I'm just that bad/unlucky? I mean, I know not everyone is going to be a winner and there has to be a ton of losers in the game. I often question whether or not it would be foolish for me to continue if I feel like I'm going to be nothing but a constant loser at this game and I'll be doing is setting myself up for more stress and failures. As for being a member, I personally feel like I've distanced myself from the members (loyalers). All of the other loyalers have done something great and can contribute to the forums, but I don't feel like I am not at the same level and so, I don't feel like I have much to contribute anymore...other than just random post to random threads. I don't have the same drive I did when I first joined.

To be honest, I have no idea what I'm asking here. I wonder if I should continue even playing even though this game and being a member is constantly frustrating me. I don't like failing and that is exactly how I feel right now. A failure. I've said it in other threads, I don't care about getting rich with poker or whatever, I just want to feel like I've accomplished something. That all these years of playing, beats, frustrations, close calls, etc have been for something. But, I just don't see that happening anymore....

Should I just give up and come to terms that it's very likely I'll never achieve this goal? I know for a fact that if I quit, I would have to quit this forum as well...which is something I would honestly hate to do. Or do I keep trying and keep hoping and (probably) keep failing? Everyone keeps saying 'Keep trying, one day it'll happen....'

I feel for you. Poker is a brutal game...in a way it's a great reflection of life. there are tons of people who have experience all sorts of hardships that have definitely been case of running bad - being in the wrong place at the wrong time kind of stuff. On the flip side, you see people win the lottery, or any other examples of running well in life.

The question is though - who's better off? If you look in the long-run, the people who tend to run poorly AND are able to use those experiences to make them stronger, and are more capable of handling whatever comes there way. There are tons of stories now adays about people who have cancer or experience major illnesses, fight, survive and are happy they went through it because of what they had learned about themselves.

On the flip side, lottery winners are notorious for going broke many years later.

I know all of my points so far fit in the "keep going it'll turn around one day" genre, but I thought I'd throw them out encase I was putting it in a different way than I've heard before.

I'd also consider broadening how you determine success. I'm not saying to take away that you want major poker results, but to add other things that poker can give you. I'd imagine that you've been an valuable contributor to a lot of people here. There is value in that. It's an accomplishment and an example of other things that can be achieved in poker or this community. What else? Do you enjoy learning? the challenge? etc? These can all be areas where you can achieve success.

Does this help?

 

[Jared Tendler]

Hi Jared,


This will be 2 story’s.


Story 1

As some others here, I have Dusty’s book, and liked it a lot. And I really liked your input. I already had a plan consisting of short, medium and long term goals. I have been working on and revising a plan to move slowly into semi-pro play, and have been working on this plan for about 7 months now. By semi-pro, I mean grinding out lo to mid stake MTT games, with the intention of making a small side income. I have just taken the step "Get a coach" (from DTB BTW) which was on my list right after "Move up in stakes" I was not going to get a coach in micro. I am still in low stakes, even tho I can play some higher stakes as far as my BR goes, but part of my plan is to make these advancements gradually, and keep reviewing and observing how I react to new stakes, and how able I am to adjust. As the stakes get higher, I will see new weaknesses and leaks, and want to take it slow enough to make my "rise" in the classic way, one small step at a time. I have been real serious, and honest and humble in my approach. I have been dedicating a minimum of 30 hours a week for a while, with 40+ hours a week minimum in my schedule to start in January next year. One part of my plan involves a certain amount of money put aside especially for this plan, and should it be gone someday, then it was not meant to be. But the BR I put aside is a realistic amount which I would manage with good BRM and going up/down in stakes as the situation dictates. I play low stakes and could from my BR actually step up a bit, but I feel I am where I need to be, and that is OK. The one change I need to make now is the amount I play compared to study, I have actually been doing non playing things about half of my poker time.


Story 2:


I have been a professional musician for over 30 years. I dont want to go into details here, but the short version is, I will not be able to practice my trade for at least 9 months, maybe a year or more, I cant say at the moment. I have to see how thing develop, and it is probable, pretty much expected, that I will be able to get back into in at some point, I just cant say when. But my opportunity to make money as a musician the way I have done for 30+ years is now not available to me. I know people will be naturally curious as to why, and I would rather keep that private, (if you think that would be important info that you want before replying, let me know and I can PM) but the effect is the same regardless of cause. The loss of income will be a severe blow to my family. I am married and have children.


It looks like poker may be one of the only chances I have to make money. And this has shattered my confidence. I had the option to take it easy, to learn at my own pace, I was really so confidant I would reach my goals. No, confidant is not the word, I KNEW I would. And now since I am thinking about this whole situation, all I can see are red „FAIL“ lights flashing. And I cant play in that state of mind. I am a relatively new player – maybe 1 year of serious playing, I am not all that experienced, in low to mid stakes, much less in the higher than mid stakes. I all of a sudden feel pressured to play and win, and that scares me. Now after a decent successful half year of improving, winning more, moving up and seeing it be good, now I am afraid to play. Afraid to let my family down even more. A few weeks ago I was „I am gonna make this work“ But I was thinking in maybe 6-12 months time, and then only a supplemental income which would be ok no matter how minimal. Now I am really spinning in circles and don’t know what to do.


To be honest, I feel that my grasp on the game and my ability to understand the nuances and ability to focus on each situation and make good decisions have all been improving in a way to make me confidant I can get there. („There“ being higher volume playing with an acceptable ROI to make it eventually a decent side income) But this pressure has swooped in and in an instant totally destroyed this really high confidence I had, just a short time ago.


I am going to give it a shot. I have a decent, not incredibly large, BR, money that was planned for my poker plan anyway. My wife was incredibly supportive through this, and she has stood by as I played, reviewed, read books, made charts, watched vids – and took a few tourney down – but she is now in panic mode as well. And to be honest, that makes me even more scared of failure. And this fear of failure is making me scared to play at all right now. She does, however, think I should give it a shot cause I need to do something. I am a foreigner here and only have papers that allow me to work in the music industry, so I cant do some stupid job like sorting letters in the post office or whatever, and a number of other jobs would be logistically impossible anyway. And I have been my own boss for over 30 years, so I dont know how well I would mentally adapt to having a boss in some menial job, but since I dont have a choice, its a moot point.,


Its all a pretty new situation.


I feel a bit weird posting this here, but I am gonna try to make poker work now, and i need to battle this fear so it does not tilt me in ways I don’t know how to combat, cause fear of failure was never an issue before.



I do feel strange laying my life open like this. I may regret it tomorrow, but I don’t know how to deal with this new pressure. And I am gonna do this, so I need all the help I can get. So I am pushing „Submit Reply“ then its posted. For better or worse.........

As PNJs Dad said - I wish you and your family the best. I hope an exchange can help get you in a stronger place mentally.

Since it's almost 2 months since you posted, I'm wondering where you are mentally right now and what would be most helpful for you. I'm sorry it's taken me so long to respond - I'm around more now and happy to help.

 

[Jared Tendler]

hi Jared,

one question, not sure if its already been answered;

Do you advocate taking a break after a big win/winning day? I find that the day after a very succesfull day I tend to have a really crappy day at the tables as I feel a wee bit invinvible and make some really poor plays.

Any suggestions on how to fix this?

It's good to take a break if you can't shake the feeling of invincibility, but the goal in my mind is to fix the underlying reasons why you would feel that way. This overconfidence is a common problem and there are several things that can cause it.

What is it for you - why does a big winning day make you feeel invincible? What are some of the things that you say in your head or outloud to others about it?

Ultimately you are going to have to push yourself to play on days when you typically would not play, but...you need to know what's causing it, otherwise it's unlikely that you'll able to push yourself without having it come back.

 

[Jared Tendler]

It's been a while, I admit I forgot about the thread as I'm not in this sub forum too often, but thanks a lot for answering my question.

Yes what you've said does make sense and even in this short space of time I feel I have come to notice the beginnings of tilt even better. I think the first signs I have noticed are things like raising KJo or A9o UTG (6-max) which for my games/skill level is currently -EV (as standard). When I notice myself doing it, I've started to say to myself, you know you shouldn't be doing that, stop it. I think this is what you were suggesting. Noticing I am doing something that is affected by tilt, and making a statement to myself about it involving logic and good poker.

I also begin doing things like raising the button with hands that aren't good for the spot, "just cause" and saying to myself, "No I shouldn't raise this hand there because of x" is enough to reign me back in. I think now that after I recognise I'm making those "small" mistakes that if I continue to make them then I am on tilt and should end my session.

I suppose the fact that I am easy with variance and that I HATE making mistakes more than anything is probably a good thing in poker, I just need to increase my control of both.

My current motivation in poker is to think logically about every one of my actions, to take the time to think through tough decisions when necessary and to never make a decision without thinking. I want to follow certain rules such as what I open, where and against what opponents to make sure I am making sound +EV decisions.

Thanks for your time, just thinking about and writing out these thoughts has helped me greatly.

Your welcome! Great to hear you're doing well.

 

[ChuckTs]

Hey Jared,

What kind of pricing do you have planned for your forthcoming book?

 

[Colbefc]

hi

My problem is that when I am winning I am a
decent player but when I am on a losing run
it affects my mental attitude and I start playing badly
which causes my losing run to continue so
I keep playing badly etc

I send to jump from PlO to OHM to NL
to sit n go's to try and halt the run but that
dlesnt work either

I dont tilt in the way of playing at higher
stakes to try and get my money back, I stick
at the same stakes but I find it hard to keep
a positive mental attitude when I am in a bad run

I am sure this is a problem a lot of players have but to
me it seems impossible to beat

I am a Buddhist so in real life I have a positive mental
attitude but sadly that doesnt extend to my poker