Ask Mental Game Coach Jared Tendler

pat3392 · Jan 30, 2011

omg tiiiillllltttt. Spent about an hour writing out a well thought out post, only to have a power out that erased what I wrote =/

Hey Jared!!! Hope your book and all that is working out.

I have a more life problem that is also effecting my poker game that I hope you can offer some insight on. It's kind of hard to describe, but I have this persistent flaw in my logic. Basically, I'm not thinking enough and acting on whims too much. This whim is, probably obviously, is influenced by my habits/preconceptions and I'm having problems breaking away from these limitations. This flaw in my thought processes(or lack of) is causing many problems. For example, not considering future scenarios when dating a not so nice girl, giving away excess information to the government when asked questions, or not putting someone on a accurate range and making a foolish move because of. After the event has happened I put all the pieces together and it's obvious, which in turn makes me ask myself why I didn't consider it then as I should have been able to deduce all these potential scenarios. I don't make the same mistake twice, but it's a costly way of learning.

After making a lot of mistakes on a camping trip I realised that I don't analyze situations enough. I vowed to put this behind me, but when in similar situations I continue to make the same mistake of acting on impulses. It's hard to think through everything in some situations because I don't have enough time to plow through all the data; for example, in social settings. But even in other situations I simply don't do it. I find it kinda hard to independently think. Whenever I am in some situation that requires thought, instead of sitting in a meditation like fashion and really think through all the variables, I go and find relevant sources of information and analyze what that is saying instead. For example, when I was looking into vegetarianism, instead of gathering information and then evaluate, I'd gather than analyze other people's thoughts on it. Or when I have some personal problem going on, I'd plow through Psychology articles/text books that are relevant, instead of listening to what's inside. Or if I find a poker hand complicated, I'd post it on a forum and scrutinize other people's thought processes instead of scrutinizing my own thoughts. I have all the knowledge to think through the hand, yet I still insist on using other people as the "lever" to think about it. Heck, I'm even doing it right now; instead of really think through it on a deep level, I'm going to a relevant expert for an opinion, so that I can analyze his thoughts and apply it. I've became quite good at doing so, but relying on others is so incredibly -EV and to take my thought processes to the next level I really need to learn to think independently.

I've recently been splashing around a bit in cash games. I have these preconceptions of how I should play in such a game. This is making me make moves that are -EV, like 3-betting light like a maniac. Instead of thinking of it like, by doing this it opens up these possible scenarios and will effect future situations like this etc and really evaluating it, I just follow my program and press buttons. This is a real problem post-flop because I haven't been programmed to assign ranges yet, more play in a manner that I've been told to do. I'm having very big difficulties breaking away from this habit. It is clouding my judgment/ making me take -EV moves that if I thought of it some more, I would have realised it was a bad play. I also have a minor social anxiety, which typically comes when being observed and it's a complete waste of energy. I recognise it as such but still can't seem to break away from it, can't let go of the installed script

Perhaps I'm expecting too much of myself, but if the event makes sense afterwards and I can put the pieces together, surely I can do so before the event has actually taken place. And is there anyway I can act/think without my habits/preconceptions jumping in the way, kind of wipe the canvas clean and reprogram myself from ground up.

Sorry if I repeated myself, kind of hard to describe myself here. Anyway, I really appreciate any advice

Jared Tendler · Feb 1, 2011

ChuckTs said:
Hey Jared,

What kind of pricing do you have planned for your forthcoming book?

Hey Chuck, long time, how's you're game these days?

The book will be $49.95.

Jared Tendler · Feb 1, 2011

Colbefc said:
hi

My problem is that when I am winning I am a
decent player but when I am on a losing run
it affects my mental attitude and I start playing badly
which causes my losing run to continue so
I keep playing badly etc

I send to jump from PlO to OHM to NL
to sit n go's to try and halt the run but that
dlesnt work either

I dont tilt in the way of playing at higher
stakes to try and get my money back, I stick
at the same stakes but I find it hard to keep
a positive mental attitude when I am in a bad run

I am sure this is a problem a lot of players have but to
me it seems impossible to beat

I am a Buddhist so in real life I have a positive mental
attitude but sadly that doesnt extend to my poker

It is pretty common - because rarely does life put people under the type of pressure that poker does. Intense pressure exposes weaknesses, and they often come with a lot of negative emotion, which makes it even tougher to stay positive.

What is it about losing that throws you over the edge? Why is it so hard?

Once I get a sense to the specifics of why losing is hard for you, I can help you work towards resolving the underlying weaknesses in your approach and it'll become easier to be positive automatically.

Jared Tendler · Feb 1, 2011

pat3392 said:
omg tiiiillllltttt. Spent about an hour writing out a well thought out post, only to have a power out that erased what I wrote =/

Hey Jared!!! Hope your book and all that is working out.

I have a more life problem that is also effecting my poker game that I hope you can offer some insight on. It's kind of hard to describe, but I have this persistent flaw in my logic. Basically, I'm not thinking enough and acting on whims too much. This whim is, probably obviously, is influenced by my habits/preconceptions and I'm having problems breaking away from these limitations. This flaw in my thought processes(or lack of) is causing many problems. For example, not considering future scenarios when dating a not so nice girl, giving away excess information to the government when asked questions, or not putting someone on a accurate range and making a foolish move because of. After the event has happened I put all the pieces together and it's obvious, which in turn makes me ask myself why I didn't consider it then as I should have been able to deduce all these potential scenarios. I don't make the same mistake twice, but it's a costly way of learning.

After making a lot of mistakes on a camping trip I realised that I don't analyze situations enough. I vowed to put this behind me, but when in similar situations I continue to make the same mistake of acting on impulses. It's hard to think through everything in some situations because I don't have enough time to plow through all the data; for example, in social settings. But even in other situations I simply don't do it. I find it kinda hard to independently think. Whenever I am in some situation that requires thought, instead of sitting in a meditation like fashion and really think through all the variables, I go and find relevant sources of information and analyze what that is saying instead. For example, when I was looking into vegetarianism, instead of gathering information and then evaluate, I'd gather than analyze other people's thoughts on it. Or when I have some personal problem going on, I'd plow through Psychology articles/text books that are relevant, instead of listening to what's inside. Or if I find a poker hand complicated, I'd post it on a forum and scrutinize other people's thought processes instead of scrutinizing my own thoughts. I have all the knowledge to think through the hand, yet I still insist on using other people as the "lever" to think about it. Heck, I'm even doing it right now; instead of really think through it on a deep level, I'm going to a relevant expert for an opinion, so that I can analyze his thoughts and apply it. I've became quite good at doing so, but relying on others is so incredibly -EV and to take my thought processes to the next level I really need to learn to think independently.

I've recently been splashing around a bit in cash games. I have these preconceptions of how I should play in such a game. This is making me make moves that are -EV, like 3-betting light like a maniac. Instead of thinking of it like, by doing this it opens up these possible scenarios and will effect future situations like this etc and really evaluating it, I just follow my program and press buttons. This is a real problem post-flop because I haven't been programmed to assign ranges yet, more play in a manner that I've been told to do. I'm having very big difficulties breaking away from this habit. It is clouding my judgment/ making me take -EV moves that if I thought of it some more, I would have realised it was a bad play. I also have a minor social anxiety, which typically comes when being observed and it's a complete waste of energy. I recognise it as such but still can't seem to break away from it, can't let go of the installed script

Perhaps I'm expecting too much of myself, but if the event makes sense afterwards and I can put the pieces together, surely I can do so before the event has actually taken place. And is there anyway I can act/think without my habits/preconceptions jumping in the way, kind of wipe the canvas clean and reprogram myself from ground up.

Sorry if I repeated myself, kind of hard to describe myself here. Anyway, I really appreciate any advice

Very insightful Pat - so obviously you realize now I'm not going to give you much advice

You're right, if you can analyze the factors after the fact you can learn to do it before - how? Simple - learn. My guess is that you're mind works very fast, and because of that you have a lot of info in your head, but not a lot of it is really learned - to the point where it's automatic. So work on it. Start writing everyday. Structure the process by which you analyze. Practice it everyday. Start with easy stuff, and then work your way up to more complex situations.

You're going to struggle with it at first - but the more you work at it the more you'll get the hang of it.

If after 30 days of really working at it, not much progress has been made, you might have a subtle anxiety issue that could be undermining your ability to learn. But let's wait - until you've had a chance to practice and really work at it yourself.

pat3392 · Feb 2, 2011

Jared Tendler said:
Very insightful Pat - so obviously you realize now I'm not going to give you much advice

You're right, if you can analyze the factors after the fact you can learn to do it before - how? Simple - learn. My guess is that you're mind works very fast, and because of that you have a lot of info in your head, but not a lot of it is really learned - to the point where it's automatic. So work on it. Start writing everyday. Structure the process by which you analyze. Practice it everyday. Start with easy stuff, and then work your way up to more complex situations.

You're going to struggle with it at first - but the more you work at it the more you'll get the hang of it.

If after 30 days of really working at it, not much progress has been made, you might have a subtle anxiety issue that could be undermining your ability to learn. But let's wait - until you've had a chance to practice and really work at it yourself.

hmmmrmmm yeah ok. Any tips for how to structure it? And what should I be writing?

fletchdad · Feb 2, 2011

Jared Tendler said:
As PNJs Dad said - I wish you and your family the best. I hope an exchange can help get you in a stronger place mentally.

Since it's almost 2 months since you posted, I'm wondering where you are mentally right now and what would be most helpful for you. I'm sorry it's taken me so long to respond - I'm around more now and happy to help.

NP that it took so long. I appreciate very much that you spend any of your time at all helping like this. I need to say that first off. And I think I am not alone in this sentiment!

As far as how I am mentally right now, I am not real sure TBO. I now am using a coach, am learning to multi table - my game is 9 man SnG, mainly turbo - and am only at 4 tables ATM but will be gradually adding on. I am not yet decided on what game I really want to concentrate on, as I like MTTs and reg speed SnGs, and I am still trying them all, although I only play one format at a time, and I am trying to find THE game (for now) and when I decide - it will be soon - I will concentrate on that for an undefined amount of time, this is stuff I am discussing with my coach. I spend about 8-10 hours a day, minimum 5 days a week on poker. This includes everything on and off table.

Mentally...hmmmm. It is off to a very rocky start. I am down more than a couple hundred bucks, and even though I dont really have a big problem with this, my wife is like "I thought you were going to MAKE money", my hours are erratic and I get way too little sleep. Not to mention I am experiencing bad beats like I never believed could happen. I danced on the edge of "rigtardedness" for a few days. I mean AA,KK,QQ against ATC and not holding, but by getting runner runner flushes and straights , calling the desparate SS with the best hand by far on the flop then having the river beat all hands and pot-splitting and on and on......

That said, I am loving it. Weird huh?? I simply believe it can be done. I am not a very experienced player, but I am wiling to put in the hours, the work, the time and am more than willing to take advice and act on it.

I wont go into a lot of detail now, any thing you need to know I am happy to let you know. But I am going to give this a try. I will be working with a coach, I will be trying out training sites - among others DTB, where I already was a member for a while. (I am thinking, since my budget is limited and if its gone, thats the end of this endeavor, I will do a training site for a month, then utilize the info then another month and so on. (I have to be careful that I dont invest too much too often, as I only can go so far financially). My plan is to slowly build my BR and have a good balance between poker playing investment and other tools such as training etc. Having said that, my plans can change anytime, since I am basically feeling my way around here.

I AM having a BIG problem with short term tilt. I think my neighbors must wonder WTF is going on here sometimes. (We live in an apartment building and I can slightly make out normal volume conversations from neighbors) The one thing I have under control are my outbursts when I am not alone in the apartment. But when I am alone, the shouts are colorful and straight from the gutter. If it gets bad enough that I start mashing buttons I finish the games I have open and stop. But I seem to be ok at just getting on with it. I take breaks, and my play is usually planned around my family, so we have dinner together, and my grinding is at night when my daughter is in bed, and during school hours. I find myself playing a lot of regs with a lot more experience than me in the school hours. They are 8 am-3 pm CET, which is GMT +1. The better hours for recreational players would be like 10 PM till 5-6 am my time. Since I am serious about giving this a go as an earning player, I guess I eventually will have to re-think my hours. My coach looked at my SS details on a majority of players I play against and suggested I "GTF off those tables" but that means not playing but maybe 4 hours a day tops, unless I want to stay up all night, so that is a big problem ATM as well. I am trying to nap days so I can stay up more nights, but I have never been good at daytime sleeping and even exhausted I cant seem to sleep during the day. Of course, I play nights longer than I should .- sleep wise - and end up being tired all the time and thats is of course real bad overall. But as I stated, its all new to me, so I am taking different paths and hope to eventually find one that works.

I have a severe problem with tilt in normal life, and my relationship with my wife is extremely hot-cold. I react much worse to stress situations than I used to, so I am certain my opinion of how I deal with tilt in poker is probably way off base.

But I wander in my ramblings here, as I tend to do. My mental state goes from optimistic to WTF do I think I am doing. I try to stay positive, and sometimes do. But I am also a bit scared, and I think that influences my play. I believe my biggest problem is that I am not very experienced, and therefor play way to careful, cause I think everyone can see how inexperienced I am, and I tend to believe other players representation, and dont react aggressively enough. When I do, I seem to always pick the wrong spots, which leads to a catch-22.

I think I am starting to see where I need to change certain things, and I guess it just gonna take a couple hundred thousand hands with regular review. I will be checking in at CC with updates, when there is anything good to update. Havent had too many chances to do that yet......

ChuckTs · Feb 2, 2011

Jared Tendler said:
Hey Chuck, long time, how's you're game these days?

The book will be $49.95.

Steal!

My table game has taken pretty big strides, but my mental game has maybe only taken two steps forward. Been putting in quite a bit of work away from the table, but I still only manage 30k hands/month at best when I should be doing double that.

meh.

Book should help

WiZZiM · Feb 5, 2011

Wow, only just noticed this thread :/.

Anyways, hi Jared, thanks for taking the time out for this forum.

I have a quick question that relates not only to poker, but pretty much my whole life. Not sure how to ask this, but i'll give a few examples.

Golf- When i was young i lived down the road from a golf course. Naturally i played a lot. I started to get hooked on the game and spent a lot of time after school practicing to get good at the game. After a few years of solid practice i became a very good player, playing in state and country youth events. When i reached that point, i became uninterested in the game and pursued other sports.

Work- Same thing, i'd work my ass off trying to be the best worker around, as soon as i'd get really good at my job, i'd lose interest.

Poker- I've spent the last year dedicating a lot of time to becoming a very good SNG player. Again, i've reached this point where i feel i know a lot about the game, the results are good and consistant, but again i reach that point where i'm losing interest in the game.

I could give a list of examples exactly the same as this, no matter what the activity was.

I feel like i'm wasting my talents, all the work i put in just gets flushed down the toilet. Basically i guess i'm asking, what is wrong with me

.

This probably isn't quite poker related, but any sort of feedback i would appreciate, before i go and waste another bunch of time on the next thing that interests me.

Many thanks again for any feedback.

Jared Tendler · Feb 8, 2011

pat3392 said:
hmmmrmmm yeah ok. Any tips for how to structure it? And what should I be writing?

I think there's are many ways to make it work, first thing that comes to my mind is to write out what you realize after the fact. Since the goal is to know it before. Analyze what you were thinking at the time (before the decision), then take a closer look at what you realized after, and basically your goal is to just focus on what was missing. Figure out why that factor or piece of information wasn't there?

Does that help?

Jared Tendler · Feb 8, 2011

fletchdad said:
NP that it took so long. I appreciate very much that you spend any of your time at all helping like this. I need to say that first off. And I think I am not alone in this sentiment!

As far as how I am mentally right now, I am not real sure TBO. I now am using a coach, am learning to multi table - my game is 9 man SnG, mainly turbo - and am only at 4 tables ATM but will be gradually adding on. I am not yet decided on what game I really want to concentrate on, as I like MTTs and reg speed SnGs, and I am still trying them all, although I only play one format at a time, and I am trying to find THE game (for now) and when I decide - it will be soon - I will concentrate on that for an undefined amount of time, this is stuff I am discussing with my coach. I spend about 8-10 hours a day, minimum 5 days a week on poker. This includes everything on and off table.

Mentally...hmmmm. It is off to a very rocky start. I am down more than a couple hundred bucks, and even though I dont really have a big problem with this, my wife is like "I thought you were going to MAKE money", my hours are erratic and I get way too little sleep. Not to mention I am experiencing bad beats like I never believed could happen. I danced on the edge of "rigtardedness" for a few days. I mean AA,KK,QQ against ATC and not holding, but by getting runner runner flushes and straights , calling the desparate SS with the best hand by far on the flop then having the river beat all hands and pot-splitting and on and on......

That said, I am loving it. Weird huh?? I simply believe it can be done. I am not a very experienced player, but I am wiling to put in the hours, the work, the time and am more than willing to take advice and act on it.

I wont go into a lot of detail now, any thing you need to know I am happy to let you know. But I am going to give this a try. I will be working with a coach, I will be trying out training sites - among others DTB, where I already was a member for a while. (I am thinking, since my budget is limited and if its gone, thats the end of this endeavor, I will do a training site for a month, then utilize the info then another month and so on. (I have to be careful that I dont invest too much too often, as I only can go so far financially). My plan is to slowly build my BR and have a good balance between poker playing investment and other tools such as training etc. Having said that, my plans can change anytime, since I am basically feeling my way around here.

I AM having a BIG problem with short term tilt. I think my neighbors must wonder WTF is going on here sometimes. (We live in an apartment building and I can slightly make out normal volume conversations from neighbors) The one thing I have under control are my outbursts when I am not alone in the apartment. But when I am alone, the shouts are colorful and straight from the gutter. If it gets bad enough that I start mashing buttons I finish the games I have open and stop. But I seem to be ok at just getting on with it. I take breaks, and my play is usually planned around my family, so we have dinner together, and my grinding is at night when my daughter is in bed, and during school hours. I find myself playing a lot of regs with a lot more experience than me in the school hours. They are 8 am-3 pm CET, which is GMT +1. The better hours for recreational players would be like 10 PM till 5-6 am my time. Since I am serious about giving this a go as an earning player, I guess I eventually will have to re-think my hours. My coach looked at my SS details on a majority of players I play against and suggested I "GTF off those tables" but that means not playing but maybe 4 hours a day tops, unless I want to stay up all night, so that is a big problem ATM as well. I am trying to nap days so I can stay up more nights, but I have never been good at daytime sleeping and even exhausted I cant seem to sleep during the day. Of course, I play nights longer than I should .- sleep wise - and end up being tired all the time and thats is of course real bad overall. But as I stated, its all new to me, so I am taking different paths and hope to eventually find one that works.

I have a severe problem with tilt in normal life, and my relationship with my wife is extremely hot-cold. I react much worse to stress situations than I used to, so I am certain my opinion of how I deal with tilt in poker is probably way off base.

But I wander in my ramblings here, as I tend to do. My mental state goes from optimistic to WTF do I think I am doing. I try to stay positive, and sometimes do. But I am also a bit scared, and I think that influences my play. I believe my biggest problem is that I am not very experienced, and therefor play way to careful, cause I think everyone can see how inexperienced I am, and I tend to believe other players representation, and dont react aggressively enough. When I do, I seem to always pick the wrong spots, which leads to a catch-22.

I think I am starting to see where I need to change certain things, and I guess it just gonna take a couple hundred thousand hands with regular review. I will be checking in at CC with updates, when there is anything good to update. Havent had too many chances to do that yet......

Sounds like you're thinking and doing the right things.

Being inexperienced is never a fault, it's a reality. If players know your inexperienced or not, how does that affect how they are going to play against you? If that's something your worried about, ask some people here from a poker standpoint. Whatever you find here, one thing I can say for sure is that your leveling yourself here a little bit and trying to know how they are thinking about your game too much. You don't have enough experience to determine that yet, and while it's important to consider for sure - I'd work with your coach on realistic ways to assess your opponent's thought process about you, so you can be prepared in a realistic way, and not just being stuck caught up in fearing it.

As for the tilt, let me know if you want some help. If so, just give more details.

Best to you,
Jared

Jared Tendler · Feb 8, 2011

ChuckTs said:
Steal!

My table game has taken pretty big strides, but my mental game has maybe only taken two steps forward. Been putting in quite a bit of work away from the table, but I still only manage 30k hands/month at best when I should be doing double that.

meh.

Book should help

Book has a TON of new stuff, so hopefully it'll help you hit your stride!

Jared Tendler · Feb 8, 2011

WiZZiM said:
Wow, only just noticed this thread :/.

Anyways, hi Jared, thanks for taking the time out for this forum.

I have a quick question that relates not only to poker, but pretty much my whole life. Not sure how to ask this, but i'll give a few examples.

Golf- When i was young i lived down the road from a golf course. Naturally i played a lot. I started to get hooked on the game and spent a lot of time after school practicing to get good at the game. After a few years of solid practice i became a very good player, playing in state and country youth events. When i reached that point, i became uninterested in the game and pursued other sports.

Work- Same thing, i'd work my ass off trying to be the best worker around, as soon as i'd get really good at my job, i'd lose interest.

Poker- I've spent the last year dedicating a lot of time to becoming a very good SNG player. Again, i've reached this point where i feel i know a lot about the game, the results are good and consistant, but again i reach that point where i'm losing interest in the game.

I could give a list of examples exactly the same as this, no matter what the activity was.

I feel like i'm wasting my talents, all the work i put in just gets flushed down the toilet. Basically i guess i'm asking, what is wrong with me .

This probably isn't quite poker related, but any sort of feedback i would appreciate, before i go and waste another bunch of time on the next thing that interests me.

Many thanks again for any feedback.

Yw! As I've said to posters before, it's a mutual benefit. I learn myself by doing this.

Sounds like your a jack of many trades but master of none. If I'm right there are a couple underlying probs that cause it. 1) Failing to set new goals within a give domain. Often that can happen, because when you are at the top of the mountain, you believe you have reached the top and there's nothing left to achieve. That's an illusion. Mastery is a moving target so there's always the next mountain to climb...the key is being able to identify it. Mastery is also all in the details, so you may need a more sophisticated means of identifying the small things within golf, business or poker to focus yourself on. It's at this stage too that there's less 'standard' material to draw from, so independent learning is a MAJOR skill to have. If you don't have it, it can be easy to get discouraged and look for something else to do with your current learning skill.

Summary - set new goals. Find smaller details to learn. Get better at learning.

Make sense? help?

pat3392 · Feb 8, 2011

Jared Tendler said:
I think there's are many ways to make it work, first thing that comes to my mind is to write out what you realize after the fact. Since the goal is to know it before. Analyze what you were thinking at the time (before the decision), then take a closer look at what you realized after, and basically your goal is to just focus on what was missing. Figure out why that factor or piece of information wasn't there?

Does that help?

That helps so much, cheeers!!!

fletchdad · Feb 9, 2011

Jared Tendler said:
Sounds like you're thinking and doing the right things.

Being inexperienced is never a fault, it's a reality. If players know your inexperienced or not, how does that affect how they are going to play against you? If that's something your worried about, ask some people here from a poker standpoint. Whatever you find here, one thing I can say for sure is that your leveling yourself here a little bit and trying to know how they are thinking about your game too much. You don't have enough experience to determine that yet, and while it's important to consider for sure - I'd work with your coach on realistic ways to assess your opponent's thought process about you, so you can be prepared in a realistic way, and not just being stuck caught up in fearing it.

As for the tilt, let me know if you want some help. If so, just give more details.

Best to you,
Jared

Yea, I am working on it. I already use plastic coffee cups. That has helped keep stable the amount of cups my wife can choose from in the morning when she makes her coffee, but I still have to figure out what to do about the coffee stains on the wall......

Sounds like a joke, but isnt.....

I recently have been getting a little better. I tend to tilt when I play a big hand correctly and get called by trash (which is what I am trying to make happen, these calls with trash) and lose. Standard tilt situation. But I also have a large problem with making a bad decision, and having it work out bad as well. Then I get into a "the suck out cards come for the other idiots...." even tho I know they come for me as often as well. My biggest problem here is knowing I made a bad decision, and getting upset instead of trying to note it and learn from it, and having this "upset-ness" hangover that effects my play for a while, and can actually snowball when the legitimate bad beats follow.

I have now cut back on playing a bit, and am doing more review and studying, and have been able to spot a couple of leaks that I wasnt aware of, and this in turn has helped me to accept the bad decisions as a necessary part of progressing, which seems to help.

In regular life, I am a bit of a hothead, and get upset about stupid things easy. This seems to have kind of cemented itself into my persona, even tho I was not always like this. So I am trying to find a way to NOT get upset at late trains, broken trash bags on the stairs, bumping my head on low ceilings, blowing up when my wife is in a bad mood and unfairly has a go at me (doesnt she understand how upset I am about that fish that called my AA all in with Q7o and flopped a FH???) stuff like that, where I tend to SNAP real quick. I am actually trying to get into a routine where I make NO reaction at all until I have consciously considered what I am reacting to and how do I REALLY want my reaction to be? Sounds good in theory, hard as hell to do. Strangely enough, it is much easier for me to react calmly when my 8 year old daughter is around. (Maybe she should hold my coffee while I play????)

Anyway, I have so many issues involving poker, and as I become more aware of what they are, I become more able with knowing how to begin dealing with them. I think perhaps one of my biggest issues is I am now spending a large percent of my time on poker compared to what I used to, and am not getting better results, and this is very frustrating. Although I know it will take time, the patience is hard for me to achieve and maintain, and this leads to me making bad time planning decisions - like playing to much when it is not productive, not reviewing enough among many others - and I have started to concentrate on that.

If I take it one step, one game, one day at a time, and learn to enjoy the journey more than the results, I will be way ahead much sooner.

If I could only act as wise as I speak................

WiZZiM · Feb 14, 2011

Jared Tendler said:
Yw! As I've said to posters before, it's a mutual benefit. I learn myself by doing this.

Sounds like your a jack of many trades but master of none. If I'm right there are a couple underlying probs that cause it. 1) Failing to set new goals within a give domain. Often that can happen, because when you are at the top of the mountain, you believe you have reached the top and there's nothing left to achieve. That's an illusion. Mastery is a moving target so there's always the next mountain to climb...the key is being able to identify it. Mastery is also all in the details, so you may need a more sophisticated means of identifying the small things within golf, business or poker to focus yourself on. It's at this stage too that there's less 'standard' material to draw from, so independent learning is a MAJOR skill to have. If you don't have it, it can be easy to get discouraged and look for something else to do with your current learning skill.

Summary - set new goals. Find smaller details to learn. Get better at learning.

Make sense? help?

It makes perfect sense, and I think it's pretty close to being spot on. However, I never think I've mastered these things. I think to be good at anything you need to think you are good, which I do for the most part. However I never think I've actually mastered them.

So perhaps its something to do with my motivation. Using poker as the example, the past year or so I've dedicated a lot of hours into my game. Even with my "real job", I'd spend most of those hours thinking about the game. Going over forums like this, doing mathematical calculations and using computer programs.

Perhaps my motivation to do these things goes once I've spent too many hours thinking about them. Perhaps when I do something I should be balancing it out with other things in my life. Perhaps I really do think I've mastered something, when I obviously haven't.

So by setting new goals, and balancing in other things hopefully this loss of motivation when I do things won't happen to the degree it is now. (haven't played poker in over a month and have no motivation to do so.)

Jared Tendler · Feb 24, 2011

fletchdad said:
Yea, I am working on it. I already use plastic coffee cups. That has helped keep stable the amount of cups my wife can choose from in the morning when she makes her coffee, but I still have to figure out what to do about the coffee stains on the wall......

Sounds like a joke, but isnt.....

I recently have been getting a little better. I tend to tilt when I play a big hand correctly and get called by trash (which is what I am trying to make happen, these calls with trash) and lose. Standard tilt situation. But I also have a large problem with making a bad decision, and having it work out bad as well. Then I get into a "the suck out cards come for the other idiots...." even tho I know they come for me as often as well. My biggest problem here is knowing I made a bad decision, and getting upset instead of trying to note it and learn from it, and having this "upset-ness" hangover that effects my play for a while, and can actually snowball when the legitimate bad beats follow.

I have now cut back on playing a bit, and am doing more review and studying, and have been able to spot a couple of leaks that I wasnt aware of, and this in turn has helped me to accept the bad decisions as a necessary part of progressing, which seems to help.

In regular life, I am a bit of a hothead, and get upset about stupid things easy. This seems to have kind of cemented itself into my persona, even tho I was not always like this. So I am trying to find a way to NOT get upset at late trains, broken trash bags on the stairs, bumping my head on low ceilings, blowing up when my wife is in a bad mood and unfairly has a go at me (doesnt she understand how upset I am about that fish that called my AA all in with Q7o and flopped a FH???) stuff like that, where I tend to SNAP real quick. I am actually trying to get into a routine where I make NO reaction at all until I have consciously considered what I am reacting to and how do I REALLY want my reaction to be? Sounds good in theory, hard as hell to do. Strangely enough, it is much easier for me to react calmly when my 8 year old daughter is around. (Maybe she should hold my coffee while I play????)

Anyway, I have so many issues involving poker, and as I become more aware of what they are, I become more able with knowing how to begin dealing with them. I think perhaps one of my biggest issues is I am now spending a large percent of my time on poker compared to what I used to, and am not getting better results, and this is very frustrating. Although I know it will take time, the patience is hard for me to achieve and maintain, and this leads to me making bad time planning decisions - like playing to much when it is not productive, not reviewing enough among many others - and I have started to concentrate on that.

If I take it one step, one game, one day at a time, and learn to enjoy the journey more than the results, I will be way ahead much sooner.

If I could only act as wise as I speak................

It's clear you know a lot about your tilt problems, and as if often the case, there are missing pieces to what you know that's critical to being able to solve the problem.

To figure out what's missing, means we need to dig a bit deeper - when I say deeper, I don't mean personal, just to understand more about why what tilts you tilts you.

Here were the things that I pulled out that pisses you off - explain a bit more about each and that will give me some info about what's really causing your anger.

Getting called by trash and losing.
Your mistakes not being rewarded
Your mistakes in general
Random life stuff

What it is about these things that get to you. While it may be stupid, there are logical reasons for it. Once we identify why it's logical, then we can break down the flaw in that logic that's causing your reaction.

Right now, you're great at managing the aftermath, but the end goal is to correct the underlying flaw in your logic and master that correction. Once that happens, the same shit can happen whether at the poker table or away from it and you won't react as you do now.

Jared Tendler · Feb 24, 2011

WiZZiM said:
It makes perfect sense, and I think it's pretty close to being spot on. However, I never think I've mastered these things. I think to be good at anything you need to think you are good, which I do for the most part. However I never think I've actually mastered them.

So perhaps its something to do with my motivation. Using poker as the example, the past year or so I've dedicated a lot of hours into my game. Even with my "real job", I'd spend most of those hours thinking about the game. Going over forums like this, doing mathematical calculations and using computer programs.

Perhaps my motivation to do these things goes once I've spent too many hours thinking about them. Perhaps when I do something I should be balancing it out with other things in my life. Perhaps I really do think I've mastered something, when I obviously haven't.

So by setting new goals, and balancing in other things hopefully this loss of motivation when I do things won't happen to the degree it is now. (haven't played poker in over a month and have no motivation to do so.)

It sounds as though you might get ahead of yourself thinking you're farther down the line in mastering something because you know a lot from your studying and time spent away from the table. The only way to prove you learned something is by doing it when it matters. There's a big difference between knowing away from the table, and being able to perform using that knowledge.

I may have talked before in this thread about the Adult Learning Model, if I haven't let me know and I'll mention more about it because it's really helpful to understand the learning process.

The reason I mention it, is that I disagree with you that to be good at anything you need to think you are good - I'd consider that to be potential. You can think you're good and actually suck (not suggesting that's you btw) and there are many people/poker players out there like that. Plus there are many other who think they suck, who are actually really strong. As I see it, to be good at something means you have proof that you are good. If you believe in your mind you are good, but don't have proof, that's potential, and the goal is to turn that potential into something you can prove.

I think setting goals is a great idea - and if there's more that you think is holding back your motivation, let me know.

Best,
Jared

Poker Orifice · Feb 24, 2011

Really enjoy reading your comments Jared - - greatly appreciated!!

pat3392 · Feb 25, 2011

I'm really enjoying it too ^^

I just searched the thread and there's no mention of Adult Learning Model. Please share!!!!

fletchdad · Feb 25, 2011

Jared Tendler said:
It's clear you know a lot about your tilt problems, and as if often the case, there are missing pieces to what you know that's critical to being able to solve the problem.

To figure out what's missing, means we need to dig a bit deeper - when I say deeper, I don't mean personal, just to understand more about why what tilts you tilts you.

Here were the things that I pulled out that pisses you off - explain a bit more about each and that will give me some info about what's really causing your anger.

Getting called by trash and losing. Yes, this is a definite piss off, as well as the major reason behind our new coffee cup assortment..lol.
Your mistakes not being rewarded. No, I am ok with not being rewarded by my bad play. My problem is, when I make a bad move, regardless of why, I get real tilted with myself. For example, I was SS on the bubble holding around 2 BB with TJs, and I saw the BS SB push all in when I was in BB, and I called. What I did not see was the other SS UTG had already gone all in and the BS had gone over the top, as I had a few tables going. BS got both of us off, and I would have been ITM had I just folded. I am berating myself for 10 minutes about this stupid mistake. Or it could be I just made a stupid raise and got punished, or I make a stupid call and so on. I realize what a dumb play I made too late, and have a hard time continuing in my other games w/o bringing that tilt to my other tables.
Your mistakes in general YES!!! I am very unforgiving of my own stupidity.
Random life stuff YEP!!! I am also way to quick to get upset about random stuff that is SO unimportant.

What it is about these things that get to you. While it may be stupid, there are logical reasons for it. Once we identify why it's logical, then we can break down the flaw in that logic that's causing your reaction.

Right now, you're great at managing the aftermath, but the end goal is to correct the underlying flaw in your logic and master that correction. Once that happens, the same shit can happen whether at the poker table or away from it and you won't react as you do now.

I know when I raise UTG with my AA, KK, AKs whatever, and get re raised by that 61/45 and I push all in and he calls with his KT-33-J9 etc, and he rivers the donk win, that I am happy to have his ilk on the tables. I am actually getting a bit better, but it still much too often gets me going when this happens.

What is it about these things that get to me, you ask. Its hard to put it in a nutshell. The bad beats and donk calls that hit the luck box, thats obvious. I know it is good in the long run, I even did an HEM study, of my hands for myself, and my good hands win enough that I am happy for the donk calls in the long run. So I have noticed a SMALL trend towards acceptance and moving on. Its a slow journey, but I do see improvement.

As far as me being mad at myself for my mistakes, that is a larger issue. I can stay slightly irritated all day when I do something really dumb, and I can definitely be angry enough to keep me tilted in a game, even if only slightly. So my tiltyness at my mistakes in general is a problem.

As far as random life stuff, yea. this is a problem. I used to be very calm and balanced, now i seem to get more influenced by situations that just are, and cant seem to find my way back to the balance I once had. I know that impatience is a major factor. Another thing is I get irritated at everyday stuff that happens unforeseen. Power outage, flat tire, family stress (decidedly weighted towards husband/wife stress) this kind of stuff.

I actually think I have more than enough insight to be better at handing . these situations than I am. I could be a classic example of "Do as I say, not as I do". My age - 52 - and my dissatisfaction at where I am in life compared to where I want to be are possible reasons behind this. I was quite successful 20 years ago in the music business, and have led an interesting and fulfilled life so far. Drugs, alcohol and the high life combined with changes beyond my control, as well as a few very bad decisions along the way have led me to the occupational situation I am in now, which is near unemployment, despite being more than capable and talented in what I do. I do have the greatest daughter in the whole world, 8 years old, and she is a major factor in the fact that I now have all excesses under control, if not completely beaten.

So, I hope that is enough info. It is hard to really know if you or anyone can really help me, as I think it is partly a situation of I know what I need to do and just need to do it. On the other hand, there is possibly a whole lot I am still missing. But I have a hard time being as organized and focused as I was when I was learning to play guitar, for example.

And BTW, thanks millions for taking the time to comment, to me and everyone else here. Its SOOOOO appreciated!!!!!

edit: I was just thinking about my " I could be a classic example of "Do as I say, not as I do" " comment. It sounds a bit arrogant in retrospect. I am not trying to say I have all, or even a fraction, of the answers. I merely mean to say I do have a bit of insight which I understand in theory but do not seem to be able to use in practice. I have actually helped a married couple improve their communication with each other to the point where their marriage is working much better, and if you saw how bad mine is in my own marriage, the irony would be funny.....almost.....

ruffcut68 · Mar 6, 2011

Awesome that you are here.
How does one develop a winning mental attitude?

Poker Orifice · Mar 7, 2011

I just wanted to bump Jared's thread up here - - it's great stuff!!

Jared Tendler · Mar 14, 2011

pat3392 said:
I'm really enjoying it too ^^

I just searched the thread and there's no mention of Adult Learning Model. Please share!!!!

Thanks for checking...ok so this is just cut straight from my book. The Adult Learning Model to me is the most important concept as it relates to the mental game because for a lot of players a lot of mental game problems happen because of incorrect assumptions about the learning process.

Level 1 — Unconscious Incompetence. You don’t even know what you don’t know. In other words, you’re blind to the ways that you lack skill ic ition, [insert 2 other conchog easier. Just think how much easier decisions in poker got when you understand the importanundun, which isn’t necessarily good or bad. For some players ignorance is bliss.

Level 2 — Conscious Incompetence. Now you’ve become conscious of what you don’t know, but that doesn’t make you skilled, it just means you know what skills you need to improve. Becoming conscious happens from either your own insight or insight that is shared with you by someone else.

Level 3 — Conscious Competence. If you’ve reached this level, it means you’ve done some work and/or have had enough repetition to gain some skill. The only catch is that in order to be skilled, you need to think about what you’ve learned . . . otherwise, you return to being incompetent.

Level 4 — Unconscious Competence. At this level you’ve learned something so well that it is now totally automatic and requires no thinking. Unconscious Competence is the Holy Grail of learning, and by far the most important concept in this book.

The essence of this theory is that learning a particular skill has an end point. UC is it. At that point you no longer have to think about it to be good at it. Which means your mind is freed to learn something new. If you fail to reach that stage, it mean you have to continue to be thinking about it, and you're limited by how many new things you can learn & if you go on tilt, are tired, anxious, bored, etc, you lose this Conscious Competent skills because you lose the ability to think.

Does the theory make sense? Feel free to ask any questions about it, I'm convinced that if more people knew about this model, a lot of problems would be avoided.

Jared Tendler · Mar 14, 2011

fletchdad said:
I know when I raise UTG with my AA, KK, AKs whatever, and get re raised by that 61/45 and I push all in and he calls with his KT-33-J9 etc, and he rivers the donk win, that I am happy to have his ilk on the tables. I am actually getting a bit better, but it still much too often gets me going when this happens.

What is it about these things that get to me, you ask. Its hard to put it in a nutshell. The bad beats and donk calls that hit the luck box, thats obvious. I know it is good in the long run, I even did an HEM study, of my hands for myself, and my good hands win enough that I am happy for the donk calls in the long run. So I have noticed a SMALL trend towards acceptance and moving on. Its a slow journey, but I do see improvement.

As far as me being mad at myself for my mistakes, that is a larger issue. I can stay slightly irritated all day when I do something really dumb, and I can definitely be angry enough to keep me tilted in a game, even if only slightly. So my tiltyness at my mistakes in general is a problem.

As far as random life stuff, yea. this is a problem. I used to be very calm and balanced, now i seem to get more influenced by situations that just are, and cant seem to find my way back to the balance I once had. I know that impatience is a major factor. Another thing is I get irritated at everyday stuff that happens unforeseen. Power outage, flat tire, family stress (decidedly weighted towards husband/wife stress) this kind of stuff.

I actually think I have more than enough insight to be better at handing . these situations than I am. I could be a classic example of "Do as I say, not as I do". My age - 52 - and my dissatisfaction at where I am in life compared to where I want to be are possible reasons behind this. I was quite successful 20 years ago in the music business, and have led an interesting and fulfilled life so far. Drugs, alcohol and the high life combined with changes beyond my control, as well as a few very bad decisions along the way have led me to the occupational situation I am in now, which is near unemployment, despite being more than capable and talented in what I do. I do have the greatest daughter in the whole world, 8 years old, and she is a major factor in the fact that I now have all excesses under control, if not completely beaten.

So, I hope that is enough info. It is hard to really know if you or anyone can really help me, as I think it is partly a situation of I know what I need to do and just need to do it. On the other hand, there is possibly a whole lot I am still missing. But I have a hard time being as organized and focused as I was when I was learning to play guitar, for example.

And BTW, thanks millions for taking the time to comment, to me and everyone else here. Its SOOOOO appreciated!!!!!

edit: I was just thinking about my " I could be a classic example of "Do as I say, not as I do" " comment. It sounds a bit arrogant in retrospect. I am not trying to say I have all, or even a fraction, of the answers. I merely mean to say I do have a bit of insight which I understand in theory but do not seem to be able to use in practice. I have actually helped a married couple improve their communication with each other to the point where their marriage is working much better, and if you saw how bad mine is in my own marriage, the irony would be funny.....almost.....

I'm going to answer your post backwards, since the timing of me reading this with my last post is pretty funny. The answer to your question of do as I say not as I do is in the Adult Learning Modle. Btw, I didn't take as arrogant, in fact as the theory show it's a reality for most people. The reason you have trouble doing what you say is because there is a very real gap between what you know and what you've mastered. Another word for mastery would be internalized. Rather than just having to think about how to react better to a mistake, a random life f***ing, or anything else is automatic. That's Unconscious Competence. Interestingly, this level of learning is actually stored in a different part of the brain, in a memory system called procedural memory. If you look this up on wikipedia, or the web, it's likely that you'll find more references to procedural memory to motor movement or basic habits. I think that definition is limited and I've found in my experience that it extends to beliefs.

Since unconscious competence is unconscious, it's hard to know what's been trained to that level. Except when we combine it with another principal of the mind. When the emotional system gets overactive, as it does when you make a bonehead mistakes, it shuts down your ability to think. The decisions you make at that time come from procedural memory or unconscious competence. What this means, is that what you have mastered about how to react to mistakes or life f***ings is how you react. All the information that you know in your mind about how you should react is lost, because you are still in the process of learning it.

Here's the challenge: The only way you can train a skill to the level of unconscious competence, whether it be pre-flop strategy or how to handle a mistake, is by performing or thinking correctly at times when it's most difficult. Basically, you have to be able to perform or think correctly when it matters most.

If you're disorganized, that's a major problem because, it often that means, you have a TON of knowledge, but not enough of it trained. Which means when the moment comes to apply what you know it disappears.

The long and short of my post here, is that I'd recommend you start writing down what you know. How you think you should be thinking and handling these situations. My guess is that you do know a lot and what you need to do now is really master it.

Once you have it written out, read it everyday, and especially before you play poker. Also write out on a note card a couple small reminders - so that you have one statement bullets to cut right through your emotional reaction in the moment and get you thinking correctly.

Expect this to be a fight between what you've mastered - old habit - and what is new (even though you've probably been thinking this way for years, just not under emotional pressure). The old habit is going to fight hard and you need to do everything you can to remain in mental control. Somedays you're going to fall short - but if you win more battles, eventually it'll get easier.

This all makes sense? Help?

Thanks for the appreciation! It makes me happy to know that you and others are getting so much out of me being here.

Best,
Jared

Jared Tendler · Mar 14, 2011

rufcut68 said:
Awesome that you are here.
How does one develop a winning mental attitude?

Can you explain what you mean by winning mental attitude? It means a lot of different things to different people.

One way to think about a mental attitude is that it's a skill that's learned. Which means, that this attitude is something that evolves over time. There isn't a mindset or attitude that's guaranteed to win, because winning is something that happens in competition. Competition evolves, and as the standard evolves so to do the requirements of a player's mindset.

I know I haven't answered your questions, but I'd like to know more about where you're coming from so I can shape my answer to what I think is best for you.

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