Can BOTS be beaten?

RiverLord90 · Nov 25, 2018

LukeSilver said:
time for an actual answer with context the best players in the world lost to a heads up bot which was programmed well there have not yet been bots made to compete 9 handed that are up to standard to beat the best in the world. So currently yes Bots are beatable and a highly skilled poker player could beat some bots.

However please note what I am saying a highly skilled poker player. not your average run of the mill ABC grinder or guy like me who makes min wage from the game which is better then most of the poker community.

In fact a lot of grinders play still tends to be learned hand charts and mass multi tabling ABC poker. many players are profitable doing this and so yes bots can be programmed better then this.

I know a lot of poker players think good poker play is been unpredictable and random so will sometimes try moves like playing 102 off suit as if it is pocket aces. The generic trend is either to never do this sort of thing or to do it far to often and think your the next Tom Dwan patrick Antanious etc etc.

I never do those sort of plays and have produced my own hand charts and this is a tight range but one thing about my whole system of play is it is combos eg i will be bluffing some of the time but will have the goods some of the time to calculated in the right ratios players do not get the odds to play back at me. Which for some reason they always do which leads to me been profitable.

Now imagine instead of me doing this you have an actual program that has done a huge amount of math and algorithms it will be much stronger at constructing this sort of play. eventually bots will be made that are literally unbeatable. a bot will have programmed variance into it.

people imagine they will be playing a bot that plays tight raises with AK check folds when they miss and bets when they have it or something like C bets with AK when they miss and check folds on the turn if they dont improve. first of this sort of play is profitable at low stakes though is definitely exploitable secondly bots would be better programmed then that.

The vast majority of players are losing to bots its that simple. and eventually all players will lose to bots.

Ok thanks for the detailed response. I'd like to think I'm an above average player but so do a lot of players. I'm fairly aggressive and play with a pretty tight card range, I also play in position pretty well so I feel like I can definitely get bots to fold if they're programmed to. But then again, I might not be able to extract any value out of them if they catch onto my game very quick. But if I get them to fold on a bluff and steal a pot, I would consider that a win.

It's good to know they are still beatable outside of heads up but I can definitely see them reaching untouchable levels in the future. I just wanted to know if it was possible before I make any deposits (playing only freerolls right now) and lose all of my money to bots. I guess I still have to worry about collusion or possible superusers when playing at mid stake cash games.

And the way you described the AK tight raise cbet describes me perfectly, I guess I play like a bot lol I do start to play tighter and nittier deeper into tourneys though. Idk if that's a good thing or not. I got 5th place for $0.90 in a freeroll today (also made it deep top 15 into a venom satellite), I got busted out with AK vs 44. I hit a set of Kings on the flop but then the villain hit his 4 on the turn.

RiverLord90 · Nov 25, 2018

sidenotch said:
Lots of theories are defeated when there's a site like ACR which deals out consistently GREAT cards to bots, or the same player at a rate of 80% or more. No matter what they play they seem to get their cards at flop, or a dumb river chase out! Bots are hard to detect at ACR and because multiple ID's are allowed also, it makes it even harder.

That does seem to happen sometimes. Makes you think collusion going on or superusers playing.

RiverLord90 · Nov 25, 2018

crisco609 said:
I haven't done much research on this subject, but as a software developer I feel like I have a decent understanding on the subject...

Bots are programmed to be logical and to always make the "best move". This is why it makes it so difficult, whenever you get the advantage on one the logic will most likely tell it to fold. But this is poker - and no matter how advanced the bot is, unless they are directly connected to the site and can see the next cards out, they can not beat the luck aspect of the game. In other words to "beat" a bot you have to play some risky hands and hope that your KK beats their AA.

To summarize, they (the bots) only play the hands when they know it is the strongest hand, so to trick a bot you need to beat their strong hand with a weaker one.

I feel like this is where bots can be beaten in the long run. I usually try to make the most logical play but also bluff occasionally in position and steal pots, something Idk bots are programmed to do yet.

RiverLord90 · Nov 25, 2018

8bod8 said:
Collusion seems more of a problem for humans than for bots.
Same for house player/bots that knows all cards at the start of every hand; these really would be unbeatable.

Yeah, it's kind of fishy when a bunch of players from the same region all sit down at the same time and leave at the same time. But yeah, a superuser would be checkmate and incredibly scandalous.

RiverLord90 · Nov 25, 2018

wlad20082009 said:
I think that it is difficult to do . I've been reading a lot about it lately . I do not like that serious people engaged in the development and application . For online poker, this can be fatal . I hope that the poker rooms will find a way out of the situation . Otherwise, they will lose their profits . I've been trying not to invest in the game lately .

Yeah same here. I started playing 12 years ago and played a little on and off but this was the first year I started studying how to make money and play professionally or semi-professionally and learned so much that I didn't know about the game. But then I find out about bots and don't want to throw all my money away playing against unbeatable programs (still doing freerolls for now). But if they are still beatable for now, then I will still pursue poker. But I agree, they will definitely lose profit and business if they don't crack down on these bots.

RiverLord90 · Nov 25, 2018

MMDPL said:
If I understand correctly that you like to have bots and play against weak players, isn’t it a machinism?:sheep:

It was more just a question of whether they are beatable or not since they are a part of the game whether we like it not. So, if they are beatable (comparable to a below average player) than yes I wouldn't mind them for now. If they are unstoppable machines, then I wouldn't want them playing or be playing at the same table as them.

ivandunaevv · Nov 27, 2018

Я прочитал об этом и думаю, что можно победить бота

shadmal · Nov 30, 2018

robots (bots) rebelled against humanity

RiverLord90 · Nov 30, 2018

ivandunaevv said:
Я прочитал об этом и думаю, что можно победить бота

Ok, thanks for replying in different language

shadmal said:
robots (bots) rebelled against humanity

Now we must rage against the machines

DGautreau86 · Nov 30, 2018

I’ve heard that bots are more prevalent in Omaha...

Due to the tighter equity and less bluffing, they can play more mathematically I would suspect is the reason

scubed · Nov 30, 2018

ivandunaevv said:
Я прочитал об этом и думаю, что можно победить бота

Translates to English: I read about it and think that you can beat the bot

PHX · Nov 30, 2018

Yes bots can be beaten.
Once luck is involved bots can do everything right and still loose just like the rest of us. This is a general sense.

I do not know how the bots operate but I think they would have a hard time making reads from tells except maybe from betting tells. I do not know how they adjust to different playing styles either.

takinitSLEAZEE · Dec 1, 2018

RiverLord90 said:
I hear a lot of talk about bots being 100% undeniably a part of online poker. Especially in all the US-friendly poker sites like ACR, BOL, Ignition, etc.

So my question is, since NLHE is not a solved game, does that mean it's still possible to beat these bots? Like Neo beating the Agents in the Matrix. Or is it -ROI to even try? Anyone here have any personal experience playing against bots?

Wanna beat a bot, learn to start bluffing. A pre-flop strategy is also needed here. There's a lot of literature for this type of problem, I would assume. Bots are just that... programmed tards.

ekgbeat · Dec 1, 2018

takinitSLEAZEE said:
Wanna beat a bot, learn to start bluffing. A pre-flop strategy is also needed here. There's a lot of literature for this type of problem, I would assume. Bots are just that... programmed tards.

Agreed, I think once I identify which accounts are playing like bots, you then can exploit the way that they run. This is assuming 6MAX or full ring. Hopefully you aren't playing any HU with bots.

RiverLord90 · Dec 1, 2018

DGautreau86 said:
I’ve heard that bots are more prevalent in Omaha...

Due to the tighter equity and less bluffing, they can play more mathematically I would suspect is the reason

That makes sense, I guess that's why Joe Ingram made those videos about ACR since he primarily plays PLO.

RiverLord90 · Dec 1, 2018

scubed said:
Translates to English: I read about it and think that you can beat the bot

I ran it through the google translate and knew what it said, I was just giving em crap for replying in a diferent language lol.

RiverLord90 · Dec 1, 2018

joeisi said:
Yes bots can be beaten.
Once luck is involved bots can do everything right and still loose just like the rest of us. This is a general sense.

I do not know how the bots operate but I think they would have a hard time making reads from tells except maybe from betting tells. I do not know how they adjust to different playing styles either.

If this is true, bots can be vary profitable to above average exploitative players that I like to believe I am

RiverLord90 · Dec 1, 2018

takinitSLEAZEE said:
Wanna beat a bot, learn to start bluffing. A pre-flop strategy is also needed here. There's a lot of literature for this type of problem, I would assume. Bots are just that... programmed tards.

I definitely bluff steal pots/blinds from time to time. I don't have a set pre-flop strategy on paper yet but I do follow a certain set of rules when I play. I have been researching pot odds, pre-flop hand percentages, expected value and have been wanting to take some time to write out a set pre-flop strategy on paper. I know Doug Polk says it helps make you a winning player. I'll be looking up some pre-flop strategies in the meantime until I formulate my own.

RiverLord90 · Dec 1, 2018

ekgbeat said:
Agreed, I think once I identify which accounts are playing like bots, you then can exploit the way that they run. This is assuming 6MAX or full ring. Hopefully you aren't playing any HU with bots.

I guess HU tables would be wise to avoid for now. I usually stick to 6max nlhe.

MatMackenz · Dec 1, 2018

I have been playing against a bot called Poker Snowie. It is supposed to plat a very strong GTO game, and is about as advanced as bots get.

It plays very strong, but it is not impossible to beat. Although I have only just recently purchased this software, I have been able to beat it at 8-max NL20 for over 8bb/100 over a 5000 hand sample.

The simple bots you may encounter are probably no better then break-even, and make most of the profit from volume and rackback.

When bots start to collude, sharing cards for card-removal and other tactics should as using HH to exploit weaknesses, this is what is the most concerning.

xx02pl · Dec 2, 2018

Imo bots can be beaten in full ring, but not in HU

RiverLord90 · Dec 3, 2018

MatMackenz said:
I have been playing against a bot called Poker Snowie. It is supposed to plat a very strong GTO game, and is about as advanced as bots get.

It plays very strong, but it is not impossible to beat. Although I have only just recently purchased this software, I have been able to beat it at 8-max NL20 for over 8bb/100 over a 5000 hand sample.

The simple bots you may encounter are probably no better then break-even, and make most of the profit from volume and rackback.

When bots start to collude, sharing cards for card-removal and other tactics should as using HH to exploit weaknesses, this is what is the most concerning.

Poker Snowie looks interesting, how much does it cost? I might try out the free trial first and then consider buying it if it's reasonably priced.

RiverLord90 · Dec 3, 2018

xx02pl said:
Imo bots can be beaten in full ring, but not in HU

Yeah that's what I heard. I guess they have solved HU NLHE.

Cloud2218 · Dec 8, 2018

A bot simply plays the best odds always depending on variables made by humans. Unless the site itself is cheating, meaning changing the cards. You can still beat a bot, and in some cases it is easier if you can spot the coding by how it plays. You can take advantage of little tells just like on a human player.

VITOS · Dec 8, 2018

Our main task-to understand the strategy of the game bot, identify his faces and use them against him. Basically, playing poker, we will meet the so-called profile bots, which are written in such a way that their game is always based on our statistics. for example, if playing against the bot you will often drop on the tribet, he will understand this and may be constantly apply this technique against you, while on any two cards. If we assume that this is true, then we can bluff more often by betting 4-betas, which will eventually turn out to be profitable.

Can BOTS be beaten?

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