Do you know how to identify your opponent's style?

DiegoRamos · May 16, 2023

If you think you can define someone's style and game with less than 300 hands, I'm sorry, you are totally wrong.
With a low sampling, you will never know who your opponent is.

For example, when I just want to play, I play absurdly loose, always exploring predictable and limited players, but at the same time I keep a certain amount of awareness, but not enough for deep analysis.

But those who don't know me will want to define me as a donk or even a fish, but on days when I'm playing seriously, analyzing each hand, they'll think that a hero call is part of the lucky moment.

That is, never underestimate or rush with someone, do things consciously and with data, otherwise, you will always be exploited and lose your money.

Jamil · May 16, 2023

Yes, your words are correct if you are talking about the smart opponent. As for the stupid, hasty opponent, it is very clear to everyone

Jason Bralli · May 16, 2023

I think that the most important is the "moment"

knowing your opponents is good, but knowing that everyone can change and improve is the most coherent reading.

analyzing the moment is always better!

GL

MishkaZL · May 16, 2023

DiegoRamos said:
If you think you can define someone's style and game with less than 300 hands, I'm sorry, you are totally wrong.
With a low sampling, you will never know who your opponent is.

For example, when I just want to play, I play absurdly loose, always exploring predictable and limited players, but at the same time I keep a certain amount of awareness, but not enough for deep analysis.

But those who don't know me will want to define me as a donk or even a fish, but on days when I'm playing seriously, analyzing each hand, they'll think that a hero call is part of the lucky moment.

That is, never underestimate or rush with someone, do things consciously and with data, otherwise, you will always be exploited and lose your money.

I agree. Everything you described here makes sense. I also always try to be unpredictable for my opponents. But sometimes I'm just lazy and that's why I play very simply, without straining too much

Poker Orifice · May 17, 2023

DiegoRamos said:
If you think you can define someone's style and game with less than 300 hands, I'm sorry, you are totally wrong.
With a low sampling, you will never know who your opponent is.

For example, when I just want to play, I play absurdly loose, always exploring predictable and limited players, but at the same time I keep a certain amount of awareness, but not enough for deep analysis.

But those who don't know me will want to define me as a donk or even a fish, but on days when I'm playing seriously, analyzing each hand, they'll think that a hero call is part of the lucky moment.

That is, never underestimate or rush with someone, do things consciously and with data, otherwise, you will always be exploited and lose your money.

What exactly are you saying here?

In the first part... I would have to disagree. I can figure out a player pretty quickly... sometimes even just a few hands can give one a good idea of who they are playing against.

The next part I find confusing.
So you play absurdly loose to explore other players who you've defined to be predictable and limited (limited in what?). Why would you choose to play suboptimally vs. a bad player? Why wouldn't we just work at adjusting to villain, working to exploit their tendancies &/or weaknesses?
Then it goes... I keep a certain amount of awareness but not enough for deep analysis. <<What does that mean? (maybe it's a translation thing that keeps from knowing what you're talking about??). I'm reading it as "i pay attention a bit... but not that much"

I don't know you and I don't know how I have defined your play... although I'm pretty sure I played a couple CC games on Partypoker and saw you in those games. I'd have to read my notes to be sure.... although I think someone might've mentioned to me Diego > donk. (might've been another diego... I'm not sure)

Pokerpoet2 · May 17, 2023

There is a Saying "If you cannot spot the Fish 5 minutes after sitting down, Then it's probably You" is so true. It is hard to put a player on a certain playing style if he is constantly changing from playing tight for some hands, then being aggressive with other hands, but that is a sure sign of a good player, He knows when to back off and when he should be pushing some players around.
Playing aggressive in the right position in a hand and playing Tighter in bad position, is a must if you want to win, also mixing it up when on the BB so when faced with a raise you have to Identify whether the player who is raising is either raising with a good hand or just trying to steal the Blinds That is why we have players who will 3X a raise just to see how good the other players hand could be, because he could just be stealing.
Poker is much more than a game of cards. It is a battle of minds!

spunka · May 17, 2023

Look at hands the player played and go backwards, was it sound what the player did or...

Recreationalplayer · May 17, 2023

Sample size matters. But HUD statstics are a good tool to bucket players into different types/styles.

DiegoRamos · May 17, 2023

Jamil said:
Yes, your words are correct if you are talking about the smart opponent. As for the stupid, hasty opponent, it is very clear to everyone

Yes, I mean in the long term games. Of course, it won't always be the same players, there will always be a recreational player who may be the only time they face him. In this situation it is important to analyze and identify patterns to start exploring.

DiegoRamos · May 17, 2023

Poker Orifice said:
What exactly are you saying here?

In the first part... I would have to disagree. I can figure out a player pretty quickly... sometimes even just a few hands can give one a good idea of who they are playing against.

The next part I find confusing.
So you play absurdly loose to explore other players who you've defined to be predictable and limited (limited in what?). Why would you choose to play suboptimally vs. a bad player? Why wouldn't we just work at adjusting to villain, working to exploit their tendancies &/or weaknesses?
Then it goes... I keep a certain amount of awareness but not enough for deep analysis. <<What does that mean? (maybe it's a translation thing that keeps from knowing what you're talking about??). I'm reading it as "i pay attention a bit... but not that much"

I don't know you and I don't know how I have defined your play... although I'm pretty sure I played a couple CC games on Partypoker and saw you in those games. I'd have to read my notes to be sure.... although I think someone might've mentioned to me Diego > donk. (might've been another diego... I'm not sure)

I can also get a preview of the player's style. But never say exactly what your game is. I make a habit of adding labels to all players, and often, most times, I have to edit when the sampling becomes significant. It is at this point that I say defining standards of regular players becomes impossible. Even because when a player discovers that he is being exploited by something, he will use it against you. And this becomes an endless cycle until one of the two loses all his bankroll and cuts the duels.

The term limited, refers to strategically or even technically limited players. And if I'm already exploiting them, it means I'm pulling their chips.

Yes, it may be that the possible donk was directed at me, I don't see any problems with that. Often, as I said, I play that way, looser, overvaluing weak players. It doesn't scare me.

Is there anything else I can try to clarify? lol

DiegoRamos · May 17, 2023

Recreationalplayer said:
Sample size matters. But HUD statstics are a good tool to bucket players into different types/styles.

Yes, but without sampling, it's literally false information.

Sopt · May 17, 2023

You can be married to a person for 20 years and still not know everything about them. They might surprise you every so often, but certainly not as often as they would when you just met them for the first time.

And I'd say same goes for poker. The more hands you play against them the better the picture is of his/her style of play.
That being said however, even the best of us have tendencies and patterns by which we play, live, act... It's simply the way our minds and bodies work and those can be read quite quickly. We might not even know them, but our opponents might notice it.

I don't know if you heard about this story. Boris Becker has most likely lost 6 Trophies if not more in his career, because of a thing he was completely unaware of. A freaking tongue placement while serving. Andre Aggasi noticed that there is correlation between where he places his tongue and where he served and abused it. He said that the hardest part is to not let Boris know that he knew about it and to Boris it seemed that his opponent can read his mind.

So while I agree with your statement, I can also say that I disagree in a way. You might change your style and throw your opponents off, especially those not well versed at the game. But you will never hide your "true identity".

If nothing else as you said yourself, when you don't play for real, you play extremely loose. A lot of people don't play freerolls with their mind 100% on the game, so after 10-20 hands in a freeroll against you I'd notice you play very loose. I'd give you a warm color (something like yellow or orange) and I'll write in the note "Very loose player in freeroll - plays every hand. Bets with nothing. Always re-raises with trash hands." or something in that direction. And well, I would most likely be right, because you won't change your style in freeroll (or maybe now you will, because I let you know how I think).

Amanda A · May 17, 2023

I think you can see some tendencies in 300 hands like if you are opening too many hands from every position and you can take actions that try and punish that, eg 3betting more against that player. That doesn't mean that that player never has it and it doesn't mean that they might change their playing style in the future.

Gallarado777 · May 17, 2023

even if a player does not play well, he can be dealt a strong card and you can think that now I will beat him and there is a pair of AA and you will lose a lot of money, of course, we will lose even knowing the opponent, but you can still study your opponent by playing with him throughout the tournament and know how approximately he will act and notice these features for yourself, but also your opponent can change his tactics during the tournament you need to know

MikeCarasone · May 17, 2023

Some players are quite obv in there style of play. It doesn’t take long to spot the guy that’s playing too many hands and is likely to eventually step in $#&t. Some players can’t help themselves and over do it once too many times. Obv some players of skill are much better at masking there abilities and hands.

DiegoRamos · May 25, 2023

Sopt said:
You can be married to a person for 20 years and still not know everything about them. They might surprise you every so often, but certainly not as often as they would when you just met them for the first time.

And I'd say same goes for poker. The more hands you play against them the better the picture is of his/her style of play.
That being said however, even the best of us have tendencies and patterns by which we play, live, act... It's simply the way our minds and bodies work and those can be read quite quickly. We might not even know them, but our opponents might notice it.

I don't know if you heard about this story. Boris Becker has most likely lost 6 Trophies if not more in his career, because of a thing he was completely unaware of. A freaking tongue placement while serving. Andre Aggasi noticed that there is correlation between where he places his tongue and where he served and abused it. He said that the hardest part is to not let Boris know that he knew about it and to Boris it seemed that his opponent can read his mind.

So while I agree with your statement, I can also say that I disagree in a way. You might change your style and throw your opponents off, especially those not well versed at the game. But you will never hide your "true identity".

If nothing else as you said yourself, when you don't play for real, you play extremely loose. A lot of people don't play freerolls with their mind 100% on the game, so after 10-20 hands in a freeroll against you I'd notice you play very loose. I'd give you a warm color (something like yellow or orange) and I'll write in the note "Very loose player in freeroll - plays every hand. Bets with nothing. Always re-raises with trash hands." or something in that direction. And well, I would most likely be right, because you won't change your style in freeroll (or maybe now you will, because I let you know how I think).

Your metaphor with marriage is perfect.
But it's like I said, it's rash to correctly define someone with little sampling.

But I also agree with you that it is possible to perceive the player's tendencies quickly.

I play sit'n go with a good volume and without a hud, without these perceptions it would not be possible to play.

The third point is that player ratings are irrelevant, if I'm playing the freeroll just for fun and I see that you have ratings and you think they are correct, I will use that against you. because this is called metagame, where most players only reach level 1 and think they are pros.

I don't want to go on too long, but the general context of the post is just to tell the player not to get caught up in guesswork or trends, as it will always be necessary to assess the real situation they are going through.

DiegoRamos · May 25, 2023

Amanda A said:
I think you can see some tendencies in 300 hands like if you are opening too many hands from every position and you can take actions that try and punish that, eg 3betting more against that player. That doesn't mean that that player never has it and it doesn't mean that they might change their playing style in the future.

Of course, you can identify primary patterns, but in depth only with larger samples.

DiegoRamos · May 25, 2023

Gallarado777 said:
even if a player does not play well, he can be dealt a strong card and you can think that now I will beat him and there is a pair of AA and you will lose a lot of money, of course, we will lose even knowing the opponent, but you can still study your opponent by playing with him throughout the tournament and know how approximately he will act and notice these features for yourself, but also your opponent can change his tactics during the tournament you need to know

Yes, because maybe it's not even a change, it could just be a player's strategy to act like this.
That's why it's always necessary to analyze the scenario without underestimating the player.

sumdumguy · May 25, 2023

You're right my friend, and so are colleagues in the thread of the publication. Unfortunately, with tracking software they can analyze you on a table and save your information and then exploit that about you, you have to play anyway.

LUKADONCICMVP · May 25, 2023

yes everybody knows how to identify other players

Matt_Burns88 · May 25, 2023

I can see what you're saying, but as with anything when you make large generalisations there are going to be exceptions.

For example: just this evening I played against a guy who I had never played before and I had him pegged as a maniac after 6 or 7 hands. Why? Because he raised or 3-bet every single hand and the two that went to showdown showed he was playing total junk. Sure enough a little while later I doubled up through him when he 3-bet me with 82o and then shoved the flop when he hit his 2.

Equally a few days ago, I was 3-bet by a player, I didn't recognise, I checked their stats and I had played 140 hands with them they had a VPIP of 9, PFR of 7 and 3bet of 1. I folded my JJ.

DiegoRamos · Jun 3, 2023

zer0c00l23 said:
You're right my friend, and so are colleagues in the thread of the publication. Unfortunately, with tracking software they can analyze you on a table and save your information and then exploit that about you, you have to play anyway.

I used HUD for a long time, but I guarantee you I do better without it.
It is easier to notice alterations in pattern analyzing case by case in the game, so it is easier to notice the moment of the player and use it against him.

DiegoRamos · Jun 3, 2023

Matt_Burns88 said:
I can see what you're saying, but as with anything when you make large generalisations there are going to be exceptions.

For example: just this evening I played against a guy who I had never played before and I had him pegged as a maniac after 6 or 7 hands. Why? Because he raised or 3-bet every single hand and the two that went to showdown showed he was playing total junk. Sure enough a little while later I doubled up through him when he 3-bet me with 82o and then shoved the flop when he hit his 2.

Equally a few days ago, I was 3-bet by a player, I didn't recognise, I checked their stats and I had played 140 hands with them they had a VPIP of 9, PFR of 7 and 3bet of 1. I folded my JJ.

Think, what will be the situation of this player? Did he open a random table? Could it be that he opened a table by mistake? Could it be that he is testing the site, the format, the fild... Is he just having fun?
Do you understand the risk of labeling someone with only 7 hands?

f_lampa · Jun 3, 2023

I never notice people fish or donkey, I think everyone plays about the same

Matt_Burns88 · Jun 4, 2023

DiegoRamos said:
Think, what will be the situation of this player? Did he open a random table? Could it be that he opened a table by mistake? Could it be that he is testing the site, the format, the fild... Is he just having fun?
Do you understand the risk of labeling someone with only 7 hands?

Of course, all of these are possibilities, but even a player trying out a new site is not 3-betting 82o or trying to figure out what the player pool is like. He may have been drunk, that is more likely...or he could just be a terrible player.

Do you know how to identify your opponent's style?

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