Should I fold A/K suited preflop from a 3-bet Shove...

YYfourU · Aug 2, 2021

Was early in the tournament, when I picked up ace king of spades. I raised just to have someone 3 bet shove all in...should I have folded, I had the winning hand , he only had jack king off suit...but I lost to a jack on the river, even flopped a flush draw but still lost. Should I have folded?

bucky_barnes · Aug 2, 2021

YYfourU said:
Was early in the tournament, when I picked up ace king of spades. I raised just to have someone 3 bet shove all in...should I have folded, I had the winning hand , he only had jack king off suit...but I lost to a jack on the river, even flopped a flush draw but still lost. Should I have folded?

You're being result oriented as you probably wouldn't be asking this question if you won the hand.

Should you have folded preflop? I don't know. I guess that depends on how you think you do against your opponents overall. If you think you have an edge over the field and can find much better spots to build your stack, then I think folding is fine. If you don't think you have an edge and winning a huge pot would increase your chances overall, then I don't think calling is bad.

I play smaller stakes and know my opponents are capable of jamming in with a range of hands that AK has an equity edge against like small-mid pairs, weaker aces, and hands like 10J+, QJ+. So, even if it's for my tournament life at the early stages and stacks are deep, I'll still call off to give myself that much more of an edge against my opponents.

YYfourU · Aug 2, 2021

bucky_barnes said:
You're being result oriented as you probably wouldn't be asking this question if you won the hand.

Should you have folded preflop? I don't know. I guess that depends on how you think you do against your opponents overall. If you think you have an edge over the field and can find much better spots to build your stack, then I think folding is fine. If you don't think you have an edge and winning a huge pot would increase your chances overall, then I don't think calling is bad.

I play smaller stakes and know my opponents are capable of jamming in with a range of hands that AK has an equity edge against like small-mid pairs, weaker aces, and hands like 10J+, QJ+. So, even if it's for my tournament life at the early stages and stacks are deep, I'll still call off to give myself that much more of an edge against my opponents.

Also think

“Well if he had a pocket pair, then I was a under dog” in the long run I will continue to win?

bucky_barnes · Aug 2, 2021

YYfourU said:
Also think

“Well if he had a pocket pair, then I was a under dog” in the long run I will continue to win?

You have to think in ranges against your opponents. If a particular opponent is only open jamming pairs, then I probably wouldn't on just a flip alone. But most players at the stakes I play are willing to jam pairs as well as hands like A10s+, KJs+, and even as bad as 910s, and 10Jo. So, against a range, AK is going to do much better and I'll have an equity edge over them.

Lets say they're really bad and they jam 22+, all suited/unsuited broadways. AKs is a 60% favorite to win in this situation and I'll happily take those odds to double up in the early stages of an MTT because I don't think my edge against the field is that great.

Jason Bralli · Aug 2, 2021

YYfourU said:
Was early in the tournament, when I picked up ace king of spades. I raised just to have someone 3 bet shove all in...should I have folded, I had the winning hand , he only had jack king off suit...but I lost to a jack on the river, even flopped a flush draw but still lost. Should I have folded?

you are at the top of the range, if you don't call all in with this hand, what other hand would you call with?

think, you shouldn't go all-in preflop with this hand, it might scare away weaker hands or you might get called by dominant hands like AA or KK.

But if you get dealt a big hand like this, you have to get in the game!

badbeats happen and sometimes you will lose, but this is normal and the result cannot be changed by action!

GL

fundiver199 · Aug 4, 2021

AKs is not a hand, you always have to stack off preflop for 100BB or more, so folding can certainly be a reasonable option, especially if you think, the opponent is only doing this with a pocket pair or maybe another AK, because then you are not getting the right odds to call. However that was obviously not the case, since his range included KJ. And if you had reason to believe, he was that much out of line, then calling was the right decision. As others have commented, this is a very results oriented post. You got your chips in good, and at the end of the day thats all we can do.

emzadii · Aug 4, 2021

if the villain shoves only TT+, AQo+ and AJs+ (which is a 5% range), then AKs is a slam-dunk call, even at the early stage, assuming heads-up. but AKo is iffy because it has merely 50.5% equity against this particular range.

against a wider range than this, then AKs/o is a call.

against a tighter range (3%: JJ+, AKo, AKs), then AKs/o loses in the long run, even though they are pretty.

This is where notes and previous hand history would help.

Cinhos_2000 · Aug 4, 2021

If you fold AK to a 3bet shove you're only calling AA and KK? One thing is to make a tight fold after a 5-bet or something, but if you fold to 3bets w such premium hands you will loose a lot of money, as you just saw this guy's range was pretty wide

fundiver199 · Aug 5, 2021

Cinhos_2000 said:
If you fold AK to a 3bet shove you're only calling AA and KK? One thing is to make a tight fold after a 5-bet or something, but if you fold to 3bets w such premium hands you will loose a lot of money, as you just saw this guy's range was pretty wide

This was not a normal 3-bet. OP failed to mention stack sizes, but it was "early in the tournament", so presumably they were rather deep, and the opponent made some ridiculous move, where he shipped in 75, 100 or whatever the amount of big blinds were, over a standard open raise. This is something, bad players sometimes do, and the range for defending against it is not the same as the range for defending against a normal sized 3-bet.

digdug0037 · Aug 5, 2021

in your case, your AKs should beat his hand more often than not, dont over guess yourself. Odds of someone haveing a better hand is soso....just look at alot of variables

danoscar · Aug 5, 2021

I have found through experience that if I want to double up, best to push all-in preflop. I know a lot may disagree, that is me. That eliminates folks taking risks against me and if they do, most times they lose and I double. I would have pushed and taken the chance.

Zirkzee · Aug 6, 2021

It depends what a tournament. In a freeroll tournament, a call is mandatory as the opponents often go all in with even worse hands. Nobody wants to gamble away their money so easily in real money tournaments. That's why you have to act tighter there. In the middle and late stages of a tournament, a call with AK is usually a must as you often don't have too many blinds on your side. But in the early phase of the tournament when you still have more than 50 blinds and are put all in by an opponent, you can also fold AK. But a call is not an absolute mistake either. If your opponent has AA, you are clearly an outsider. At KK you still have a reasonable chance of winning. In longhand cash games I would only call an all in of the opponent with AA & KK because you have to play much tighter there than in tournaments.

tourpro99 · Aug 6, 2021

Fine to fold that

I think early on, for a lot of BBs, it's fine to fold AKs to an all-in 3-bet. There's a decent chance you are dominated by AA and way behind KK. And you aren't really a reasonable favourite over anything other than Ax. In the long run, AKs is still no pair.

nuttea · Aug 12, 2021

YYfourU said:
Was early in the tournament, when I picked up ace king of spades. I raised just to have someone 3 bet shove all in...should I have folded, I had the winning hand , he only had jack king off suit...but I lost to a jack on the river, even flopped a flush draw but still lost. Should I have folded?

Throwing AK on a 3bet is incredibly stupid. At the very least, you should watch the flop with this hand.Well, if you set a range for the fish, then you can see the mo of our push. 1. all pairs, eyebrows. That's 17% of hands, our AKs win 58%, which is very good. 2. Tight range. all pairs + AK and HELL, KD. We have here a coin of 50-50. 3.pairs, broadway + all ahai. We have 63% here.

Joe · Aug 12, 2021

You made a great call and were unlucky to lose the pot. :dontknow:

That's it.

When I get all a villain's stack in preflop with their KJ Vs my AK I'm doing cartwheels all the way to the bank regardless of the final outcome of that one individual hand.

Whatever the outcome of any instance of AK v KJ, long term you'll do just fine.

Consider what your EV is going to be like if you run AK v KJ AIPF a thousand times... :wink:

Don't sweat it, keep getting your chips in good like that and the results will come! :icon_thum

Zirkzee · Aug 13, 2021

In freerolls and the low stakes your opponents often play very loose. In this case AKs is a clear call for me. If you play high stakes tournaments, a call can be a gross mistake because your opponent may have aces and then you are clearly underdog with AK. In freerolls it can even be better if you go all in with your power hands because you cannot thin out the field with a raise. And even with aces you look old against 4 players because then your equity is below 50%. Back to your specific case. You did everything right in this situation in my opinion. In the early phase of the tournament you don't need to take the ICM into account and you were the clear favorite with AK. So in any case you had a positive chip expectation value and that is what matters if the ICM is not yet taken into account.

BodyCount · Aug 13, 2021

You shouldn't fold. However, "medlar" holds a hand that beats you in almost a third of cases, and probability theory can be а bad ......

henriquemaduro · Aug 13, 2021

YYfourU said:
Was early in the tournament, when I picked up ace king of spades. I raised just to have someone 3 bet shove all in...should I have folded, I had the winning hand , he only had jack king off suit...but I lost to a jack on the river, even flopped a flush draw but still lost. Should I have folded?

Looking only to the AKs vs KJo you have over 75% of chance to win, so at long term, you will win 3/4 of that hands.

Zapahlohotrona · Aug 13, 2021

In my opinion, playing with AK for the stack at an early stage is not profitable. This will be a coin flip in 80%.But in freerolls and micro I am ready to play for the stack with AK at an early stage, there are a lot of inadequate players.

VictorOd · Aug 13, 2021

fundiver199 said:
AKs is not a hand, you always have to stack off preflop for 100BB or more, so folding can certainly be a reasonable option, especially if you think, the opponent is only doing this with a pocket pair or maybe another AK, because then you are not getting the right odds to call. However that was obviously not the case, since his range included KJ. And if you had reason to believe, he was that much out of line, then calling was the right decision. As others have commented, this is a very results oriented post. You got your chips in good, and at the end of the day thats all we can do.

Yes, sounds reasonable. But nowadays there are too many crazy overly aggressive players which push deepstack Ax, any pair, even KJ so I'm not sure anymore

tiefgang23 · Aug 14, 2021

Hey, it depends what type of tournament it is, and what the startstack is... There are tournaments with 25bb start or lower, defenitly going in preflop! With startstack over 150bb , u can easily fold them and find better folds, but only 3bet shove looks very weak , if it would be 5 or 6bet all in, u can fold there 100% , guess i would call there aswell

natsgrampy · Aug 14, 2021

I'm calling this 100% of the time, especially early in a tournament. If you win, which you were ahead, you are in great shape. If you lose, reenter, it's early and you played it correct.

Rui Ferreira · Aug 14, 2021

I don't think so, but as it was the beginning of the tournament, if you give up there's nothing unusual, it's always good to keep alive in the tournament.
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SvetRusLove · Aug 15, 2021

If the stacks are higher than 50bb I don't think I would call with AKo. Only if the opp a real maniac pushing litterally every single hand.

Should I fold A/K suited preflop from a 3-bet Shove...

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