$50 NLHE Full Ring: $ : Optimal line for value?

[Reptar7]

(Also consider that ive just blown $90 on whiskey and can still type)

What kind of Whiskey? And I am considering it. Maybe you should consider not drinking the whole $90 bottle in one sitting. Why not switch to cheap stuff after glass 2 or 3. Seems like by then it all tastes the same anyways.

BTW, I am drinking a New Glarus IPA, only sold in WI baby!

Also, ty for the answer WVHillBilly.

 

[WVHillbilly]

Would have taken the same line.
At 2NL I probably go for two streets of value though (turn + river). However the J pairing sucks so it'd probably be villain dependant.#
I'm going OT, but back on topic, I like the line but probably bet a little smaller on the river.

I agree that we should bet most turns just not that turn.

 

[acky100]

Neither can I. I also think that river bet size is brutal bad. What are you doing with it, value ? Bluff ? I dont know so bet pot (prob).

Again its plan the hand, bet/fold the river, and why you are betting so much is beyond me.

Just for an FYI, taking a winrate of 2bb/100 how much do you think that one river bet affects it over 10K hands ? Considering that we rarely get to this spot . (Also consider that ive just blown $90 on whiskey and can still type)

Whats with all the hate TB

I was in no point confused about why i was betting or checking at any point in the hand fwiw, and my reasoning for betting pot on the river was i thought if he somehow had an 8 or a PP that thought i was FOS he would call a $4 as much as he would call a $3 bet, so i went for it. Its not a standard bet for me always but i was just trying to extract value.

 

[acky100]

I agree that we should bet most turns just not that turn.

Yep. my plan was to bet the turn if it wasnt this one

 

[baudib1]

You should totally bet this turn if you check the flop. The only turn I wouldn't bet is an Ace. Pairing the Jack cuts down the combos of hands he might be slowplaying and the board just got quite drawy.

If we bet this turn and he's got us beat it's a minor mistake. It's a huge mistake to let someone with ~12-30% equity get there for free.

Whether or not this is technically a value bet or bluff makes no difference whatsoever. We have a range and so does he and our range is ahead. Just because he doesn't have 50% equity doesn't mean it's terrible to make him give up his share and he can surely call either street with worse.

 

[JOEBOB69]

You should totally bet this turn if you check the flop. The only turn I wouldn't bet is an Ace. Pairing the Jack cuts down the combos of hands he might be slowplaying and the board just got quite drawy.

If we bet this turn and he's got us beat it's a minor mistake. It's a huge mistake to let someone with ~12-30% equity get there for free.

Whether or not this is technically a value bet or bluff makes no difference whatsoever. We have a range and so does he and our range is ahead. Just because he doesn't have 50% equity doesn't mean it's terrible to make him give up his share and he can surely call either street with worse.

What are you getting value from by betting the turn maybe a rare 77-TT?Your not bluffing a K,J,or boat out.You kill the combo's for AQ/Q10.So your getting value from the occasional 66-TT/the idiot that calls for runner runner?And bluff nothing out.
Only card i don't bet turn is A/J.

 

[baudib1]

As the late great Stu_Ungar said here, "As soon as people start floating you with air you are never WB."

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cas...5nl-cash-game-thread-202029/post-1801341.html

We target the weaker parts of villain's range. If people fold to you all the time in this spot when you have KQ+ you aren't bluffing enough.

 

[dwbrown7680]

We are betting every turn here except an ace for sure. Any K, J, or 5 really hurts villain's range and puts us in a far better spot. We bet the turn for value because there are lots of draws (oesd, fd's, maybe even a gutshot), pp's and air that will call us here because we've repped absolutely nothing so far. We should also be betting that river for value because nothing has changed and we should still be ahead. By not betting in this situation we are costing ourselves value in the long run.

We target the weaker parts of villain's range. If people fold to you all the time in this spot when you have KQ+ you aren't bluffing enough.

This is 100% spot on.

 

[WVHillbilly]

As the late great Stu_Ungar said here, "As soon as people start floating you with air you are never WB."

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cas...5nl-cash-game-thread-202029/post-1801341.html

We target the weaker parts of villain's range. If people fold to you all the time in this spot when you have KQ+ you aren't bluffing enough.

We don't have KQ+ and I completely disagree with betting the turn. That board is far from drawy on the turn. Random dd hands have a 9 out draw true but that's a very inconsequential part of his range.

 

[dwbrown7680]

We don't have KQ+ and I completely disagree with betting the turn. That board is far from drawy on the turn. Random dd hands have a 9 out draw true but that's a very inconsequential part of his range.

We have QQ on a KJ5J board if we do not bet this turn we are hurting ourselves. We are ahead of so much and will get looked up by air (A10/AQ/Q10/9T, etc) and pocket pairs so much here because we have taken a weaker line. Villain has checked to us twice now, we cannot give him a free look at the river and just toss that equity into the garbage.

 

[WVHillbilly]

We have QQ on a KJ5J board if we do not bet this turn we are hurting ourselves. We are ahead of so much and will get looked up by air (A10/AQ/Q10/9T, etc) and pocket pairs so much here because we have taken a weaker line. Villain has checked to us twice now, we cannot give him a free look at the river and just toss that equity into the garbage.

Against how much of his range are we really hurting ourselves? We have 2 queens so he has few combos of straight draws. FDs are again a small part of his range and I think you're being very optimistic to think you're getting called by his underpairs on the turn.

 

[JOEBOB69]

Against how much of his range are we really hurting ourselves? We have 2 queens so he has few combos of straight draws. FDs are again a small part of his range and I think you're being very optimistic to think you're getting called by his underpairs on the turn.

Yeah pretty much what i said

 

[dwbrown7680]

Villain is likely to float IP with Ax hands very much like the one he has here. We can value bet turn and then value bet river again and get called by worse when he rivers that pair. If he folds out on river that's ok but we don't want to give him the free river to get there.

Basically we're at least getting one street of value and possibly two. And by doing it this way we're not letting his draws get a free shot at getting there.

 

[JOEBOB69]

Villain started out with 35bb no way he floats the turn with A high.

 

[dwbrown7680]

Even still that Jack is one of the best turn cards we can hope for and we need to bet it and not give people free looks at the river.

 

[Cafeman]

I would bet flop and expect to get called by Jx (and any 5x tbh), any PP and all kinda of AT type shit, and not just by AK/KQs, JJ, and 55. Granted, this is probably because I seem to mostly play with retard-stations/spaz-monkeys, and not 12/12s. So you're probably best served by ignoring me

 

[baudib1]

The thing about this hand is that if we had perfect information and could see villain's cards, what would we do?

Well, when he checks to us twice on this board after we made our range pretty face up by checking back the turn we pretty much have him destroyed. Sure, some people check/pot control top pair or monsters but the cost of losing a 3-5 BB cbet very rarely does not add up to very rarely losing an 8.5 pot and plus we could win another 3-5 BBs sometimes.

I mean the hand worked out perfectly because we got the 3-outer that we needed him to call with but if he's calling a pot-sized bet on the river with an 8 on KJJx board vs. our UTG range, he can sure as hell call a smaller bet with TT-66/A-high/AT/AQ/QT/diamonds.

 

[Deco]

There really aren't any draws our opponent can have here with any more than 3 outs (Ax). We have 2 queens so that eliminates 1/2 his possible gs str8 draws with AQ/QT.

So here the chances of getting outdrawn are slim, we rarely get much value from hands that we beat, and we allow our opponent to make mistakes/improve to a 2nd best hand occasionally by checking the flop.

This
You can't just make -EV value bets or turn your hand into bluffs because your scared off 3outers.

I check the flop because I will never be getting 3streets of value here and when I am ahead my hand is pretty safe from being overtook. By checking back I allow villain an opportunity to bluff and weaker hands to pay us off. Generally the longer you wait to bet the weaker the hands are that will call because your line looks weaker and villain has less prospective streets to call. Hero calling the river with 22 is easily done as you get a showdown instantly, a flop call has to survive two more streets.

I normally bet this turn to get value from Jx and a few weaker hands. However jX is now ahead our hand just got devalued to a one street of value hand so exactly the same factors that applied on the flop apply here.

 

[JOEBOB69]

The reason he got called on the river was because in his mind acky's line looked fos.Hell the truth is if i was playing a unknown i might call a 8bb bet to close the action here for notes.I doubt some one who is playing with 35bb is thinking that but still.