4 Bet shove ranges vs 3bet ranges??

[cjatud2012]

In a tournament with blind increase, but in a full ring cash game he does not need to engage you to make money. And if he does, hell be stronger.

What? In a cash game, if you only 4-bet KK+ and AK people can 3-bet you super wide... How is that not exploitable?

 

[Shady Vision]

What? In a cash game, if you only 4-bet KK+ and AK people can 3-bet you super wide... How is that not exploitable?

I would say because he could flat a 3bet with a wider range than what he's 4betting so he's not necessarily pegged to those 3 hands.

 

[fx20736]

I would say because he could flat a 3bet with a wider range than what he's 4betting so he's not necessarily pegged to those 3 hands.

So, you flat with QQ and you flop an overpair. You bet out and your opponent (with stats 18/12 Afq 67) re-raises you. What do you then?

If you fold you probably invested 3bb on the original bet, then called 10 more to flat and then 10 more to bet out so if you started with 100bb you've invested 1/4 of your stack and you folded without knowing if you were behind or just bluffed out of a pot.

See this thread for a discussion: https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/effective-stack-sizes-needed-set-mine-185200/

 

[kmind]

Everything is so dependent on a number of things. But in general if people catch on that you fold everything except for AK/KK+ then yes you'll either have to start flatting some hands or 4bet bluffing.

What hands you start flatting/4bet bluffing will vary against each opponent.

Also, keep this in mind because now we know who to start 3bet bluffing a lot hint hint.

fx - in your example, why would we ever lead out? But, in most cases it's best to c/f.

Figuring out when to 4bet/get it in with certain hands is a math problem and depends on what villain will get it in with/if he's bluffing/stack size/etc.

 

[fx20736]

Everything is so dependent on a number of things. But in general if people catch on that you fold everything except for AK/KK+ then yes you'll either have to start flatting some hands or 4bet bluffing.

What hands you start flatting/4bet bluffing will vary against each opponent.

Also, keep this in mind because now we know who to start 3bet bluffing a lot hint hint.

fx - in your example, why would we ever lead out? But, in most cases it's best to c/f.

Figuring out when to 4bet/get it in with certain hands is a math problem and depends on what villain will get it in with/if he's bluffing/stack size/etc.

If you 3bet and then check you might as well throw your hand away unless you have a set or AA on a dry board.

The best way to not be exploited by villains who 3bet light is not to flat bets, it is to tighten up. This serves two purposes, one, you will play less hands OOP and two you will be able to 4bet more. If you villain is 3betting light (you need a decent sample) then you can 4bet shove QQ if their 3bet pct is roughly 5% or higher. So if you opening range from EP is TT+ AQs+ AKo and you knew your opp was 3betting at 5% or more you would fold TT JJ AKo AQs which is 56% of your hands and shove with AA KK QQ AKs which is 44% of your hands. That should slow them down. Now let's say you know your opponent is 3betting at 6%, something like 99+ ATs+ AQo+ KQs then you could profitably shove AKo & JJ also.

if you wish to run these equity calculations download Pokerstove, it's free!

 

[cjatud2012]

I would say because he could flat a 3bet with a wider range than what he's 4betting so he's not necessarily pegged to those 3 hands.

flatting 3-bets is very -EV, generally speaking.

 

[kmind]

If you 3bet and then check you might as well throw your hand away unless you have a set or AA on a dry board.

The best way to not be exploited by villains who 3bet light is not to flat bets, it is to tighten up. This serves two purposes, one, you will play less hands OOP and two you will be able to 4bet more. If you villain is 3betting light (you need a decent sample) then you can 4bet shove QQ if their 3bet pct is roughly 5% or higher. So if you opening range from EP is TT+ AQs+ AKo and you knew your opp was 3betting at 5% or more you would fold TT JJ AKo AQs which is 56% of your hands and shove with AA KK QQ AKs which is 44% of your hands. That should slow them down. Now let's say you know your opponent is 3betting at 6%, something like 99+ ATs+ AQo+ KQs then you could profitably shove AKo & JJ also.

if you wish to run these equity calculations download Pokerstove, it's free!

Leading out only results in better calling and worse folding. We want to keep in bluffs.

I don't usually flat any 3bets OOP I was talking about IP.

I never ever 4bet shove 100bb deep. And depending what you can shove depends on his calling range etc.

What types of calling ranges are you referring to? Or are you assuming they 3bet/call shove always? Yes I have pokerstove but you need to do some math to figure out this stuff.

 

[fx20736]

Leading out only results in better calling and worse folding. We want to keep in bluffs.

I don't usually flat any 3bets OOP I was talking about IP.

I never ever 4bet shove 100bb deep. And depending what you can shove depends on his calling range etc.

What types of calling ranges are you referring to? Or are you assuming they 3bet/call shove always? Yes I have pokerstove but you need to do some math to figure out this stuff.

I don't know if there is a fold to 4bet stat in PT. At 2NL it is pretty common for villains to not fold once they 3bet. First because default 3bet range at 2nl is 3%< (pretty much AA/ KK/ AK) and those 3betting wide rarely fold to a 4bet and will often call off stacks with 77+ AJo+, etc.

Are you saying you 4bet smaller? If you open pot, get 3bet pot and then 4bet pot that's 35bb. Do you always get it in after regardless of flop?
Otherwise if you 4bet KK and opp flats and an A hits the flop what do you then? Fold to a shove with 1/3 of your stack in the pot?

While true that they may fold the bottom of their 3betting range and call off a 4bet shove with the top of their range I strongly advocate not 4betting light/ 4bet bluff ever at microstakes. Without history I'm 4betting AA/ KK. With a strong sample I'll shove QQ at 3bet 5%+. I haven't shoved JJ in 20k hands.

 

[kmind]

Alright yeah we're playing in different games then. In a little bit higher stakes than yours you'll see some 3bet and 4bet bluffing which changes a lot of things. I 4bet to like 27bb at most in my games 100bb deep vs one player but you don't really need to know why yet. And then no one really calls 4bets, they either fold or push allin.

As for your last paragraph where's your math if you don't mind? The "5%" stat works for only certain situations.

 

[fx20736]

Alright yeah we're playing in different games then. In a little bit higher stakes than yours you'll see some 3bet and 4bet bluffing which changes a lot of things. I 4bet to like 27bb at most in my games 100bb deep vs one player but you don't really need to know why yet. And then no one really calls 4bets, they either fold or push allin.

As for your last paragraph where's your math if you don't mind? The "5%" stat works for only certain situations.

AA .45%
KK .45%
QQ .45%
JJ .45%
TT .45%
AK 1.21%
AQ 1.21%
4.67%

QQ has 55% equity against that range. Now if you add AJs KQs QQ (TT+ AJs+ AQo+ KQs = 5.27% of possible starting hands) you gain another point in equity. For each lower pocket pair or Ace or suited K equity keeps going up.

 

[kmind]

Yeah you are right in this situation because you're basically coming up with a new game where you have QQ and no one folds once they 3bet you. Because of that you get no extra EV from his folds because there's no dead money.

I'm just saying that once you get in situations where some CAN fold after they 3bet then you'll need to learn EV calculations as opposed to just "what's my equity here" stuff.