Live Grind: How to Not Fall Asleep at the Table

[ionized77]

Sorry guys,i posted that in the wrong spot

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Its hard to find a cash game forum, which sucks because I dont play online and its a totally different animal. i found a great site that has great readings on live 1/2, 2/5, and 5/10.
These guys also offer coaching and are serious about their shit, which is great because I dont have any friends as serious about the game as I am to discuss poker hands and strategy, or especially, the what and why. its called stackem coaching. you can read the forums for free. the coaching is expensive but if I lived in Vegas where they are,i would do it for sure because they will sweat you, which is awsome. im looking forward to this,i hope it gets going

Hi, and welcome to Cardschat! Great to have you here, but you shouldn't really be advertising for other forums or for coaches here.

 

[JOEBOB69]

Couple of questions Scourrge.
First i assume your still not showing a profit correct?
What was your starting BR for your live play?
What is left in you live BR?
What is the percentage you would say is due to bad play vs down swings?(ex. 30% bad play vs 70% running bad etc.)
Several reason why i would like to hear the reasons. Mainly because you seem to understand the math side of the game so well. Just wondering about possibly your feel for the live game may be off some what,some where.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Couple of questions Scourrge.
First i assume your still not showing a profit correct?
What was your starting BR for your live play?
What is left in you live BR?
What is the percentage you would say is due to bad play vs down swings?(ex. 30% bad play vs 70% running bad etc.)
Several reason why i would like to hear the reasons. Mainly because you seem to understand the math side of the game so well. Just wondering about possibly your feel for the live game may be off some what,some where.

Correct. I'm on a very bad downswing right now. I started with 6 BIs, but I did add some money into my roll later. I'm currently down 8 BIs lifetime over 216 hours, which is an hourly rate of -$7.57 (roughly -13bb/100 at 30 hands/hr).

My live BR is basically non-existent. Approximately 1 BI that I'm definitely fine losing - I will have to make a decision about whether I want to add more to my roll or not.

Percentage of loss due to bad play is a tricky question. I'd say it's prob 40 - 50% play bad in the beginning, but I improved my play tremendously over time, especially in terms of adjusting to live play and beginning to make and follow through on reads. Toward the end, my last 10 or so sessions, I'd say it was maybe 10-20% play bad and more like 80-90% run bad (especially in enormous pots).

It's tricky though because obviously some spots start as run bad, which make very difficult decisions for us post flop - and while the decision is difficult to make the right one, it still costs us a BIT more to make the wrong one.

I don't think my "feel" for the live game is off. It's the same game. Betting patterns are still the main source for useful hand-reading, with physical tells adding some confirmation or additional info. My live leaks are mostly the same as my online leaks (namely, sometimes calling when I think I'm likely beat).

But you'll see in my live graph, while I KNOW that I'm improving (I have concrete reasons I can go more into if you're interested), my results fall off a cliff. (This graph doesn't include my last couple sessions, which take off an additional 1.5 BIs or so)

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Well, that received very little comment... yes it's an intimidating graph, but geesh!!

Anyway I played a session this past Sunday night, for roughly 4 hours, and a few pretty interesting spots popped up. Here's one:

Blinds are $1/$2. There's a limper UTG, and UTG+2 makes it $12 and I decide to just call with AKcc in MP. MP+1 flats as well. It folds around to the first limper who also folds.

Flop (~$40) AKQr
UTG+2 checks, and I bet $30. Both MP+1 and UTG+2 call.

At this point I'm putting MP+1, who was fairly tight, on a pretty big hand, most likely AQ. AJ and AT are possible but less likely. MP+1 only has about 40 behind. UTG+2 I'm less sure about. He seems to be a pretty solid player, likely "grew up" online. I figure he likely has an A but because of combos he could also have a Kx type hand. I'm not sure if he gets rid of it on the flop though. I also would expect most of his Ax hands to bet the flop.

Turn (~$130) 7r
UTG+2 checks. I notice MP+1 shifting next to me and out of my peripheral see her reaching for chips. I am 99% sure she will push all in if checked to. I figure UTG+2 feels more comfortable paying me off on the river with a Kx hand if he sees me check the turn, but I'm not sure if he still calls MP+1's shove. I check. MP+1 moves her $40 stack in. UTG+2 calls, and I call.

River (~$250 main pot, $0 side pot) T
UTG+2 shoves in his last $60. I hadn't realized his stack was so small, or I likely would have shoved the turn (he is in seat 9, I am in seat 1). At this point I'm getting the sickest price in the world, but of course this reeks of a J. And because of the stack size dynamics, if UTG+2 has a J and I have MP+1 beat (like I think I do), I still won't win any money. I tank HARD and talk aloud a little through my thought process, get UTG+2 to say a couple words, and he seems comfortable. But really, his shove tells me that. In the end I decide he can't possibly be bluffing here ever, and he doesn't value bet anything that gets to this point that doesn't have a jack in it. I fold.


This hand was a really tough fold for me but I think it's correct. As for the turn play, I should have known what UTG+2 had behind to start with and just have gotten it in. I'm essentially never behind, but also never expect him to fold for the additional $60, so that was just bad on my part I think.

As for trusting my read on MP+1, it's tricky because I'm still getting used to live, but in this instance as I mentioned, I felt extremely confident that MP+1 was about to shove, so I just went with it.

Would love to hear any thoughts or "you're crazy!!"s on this hand - will be posting another interesting spot from that session a little later. Cheers

 

[JOEBOB69]

3bet to $40 pre flop
as played flop bet looks fine,bet $55-65 on the turn.
River is ehhh, because you have to put both villains on a pair/st8 draw.

 

[OMGITSOVER9K]

yeah its a fold OTR.. sigh, complain about how bad you run and move on to the next hand lol

sick runout but meh, bad regs might x/c AA/KK/QQ on that flop for 2 streets because imo dunno how many online kids x/c AJ multiway as PFR ever OOP

 

[duggs]

raise turn imo

 

[JOEBOB69]

bet turn imo

FYP

 

[Matt Vaughan]

No. He meant x/r. Not Bet.

 

[duggs]

FYP

checking is fine when we know mp will bet 100%

 

[Matt Vaughan]

And JB, I had a mini-debate with myself preflop and just ended up flatting partially because I was taking too long to decide what to do.

But frankly, I'm not convinced auto-3betting AKs is so great here. We prob can't 3bet/fold profitably, even though when he 4bets we're up against KK+/AK with MAYBE a sprinkling of QQ. And when he calls we're missing tons of flops. If I were in a later position I'd have been more inclined to 3bet as well.

 

[JOEBOB69]

No. He meant x/r. Not Bet.

lol i know he meant x/r. It's just silly to x/r this turn. V bet V bet V bet...

 

[JOEBOB69]

And JB, I had a mini-debate with myself preflop and just ended up flatting partially because I was taking too long to decide what to do.

But frankly, I'm not convinced auto-3betting AKs is so great here. We prob can't 3bet/fold profitably, even though when he 4bets we're up against KK+/AK with MAYBE a sprinkling of QQ. And when he calls we're missing tons of flops. If I were in a later position I'd have been more inclined to 3bet as well.

NEVER FOLD AK TO A 4BET THAT IS 56bb'S!!!!!
Edit: It's nice that you got a solid read. With that said she has less by far than a normal v bet you should make. Then UTG+2 prob shoves because he wouldn't have but ~$35 more.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Uh how is it silly to x/r?? If I'm guaranteed that MP+1 shoves, then it's basically just getting to act last in the hand and see what UTG+2 does.

Honestly I should have been checking to x/r.

 

[duggs]

lol i know he meant x/r. It's just silly to x/r this turn. V bet V bet V bet...

given we have been given the assumption that MP puts it in 100% why is c/r bad here?

 

[Matt Vaughan]

NEVER FOLD AK TO A 4BET THAT IS 56BB'S!!!!!

Uhhhh a few too many drinks there, Joe? Obviously I'm not folding if I know it's only 56 bb, but not sure where you are getting that number from. Villain puts in 12 pre, then 30 otf, then 40 ott, then 60 otr. That's $142 or 71bb? Or do you mean to call off?

But either way I already said I wasn't sure of his starting stack when the hand started.

 

[duggs]

oh i also assumed he had 150 behind for the c/r. obv it doesnt matter with the real stacks

 

[JOEBOB69]

Uhhhh a few too many drinks there, Joe? Obviously I'm not folding if I know it's only 56 bb, but not sure where you are getting that number from. Villain puts in 12 pre, then 30 otf, then 40 ott, then 60 otr. That's $142 or 71bb? Or do you mean to call off?

But either way I already said I wasn't sure of his starting stack when the hand started.

Ops forgot about the $30 on the flop,still o
Just bet turn to ~65. Don't x/r

 

[duggs]

why?

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Ops forgot about the $30 on the flop,still o
Just bet turn to ~65. Don't x/r

You have yet to actually give a reason for why betting is better than x/r here.

 

[JOEBOB69]

Ok give me a reason why x/r is better here.

 

[duggs]

because MP bets 100%

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Erm... From the hand I originally posted??

Turn (~$130) 7r
UTG+2 checks. I notice MP+1 shifting next to me and out of my peripheral see her reaching for chips. I am 99% sure she will push all in if checked to. I figure UTG+2 feels more comfortable paying me off on the river with a Kx hand if he sees me check the turn, but I'm not sure if he still calls MP+1's shove. I check. MP+1 moves her $40 stack in. UTG+2 calls, and I call.

 

[duggs]

and therefore we have relative position on villain and can raise when he overcalls