Live Grind: How to Not Fall Asleep at the Table

[Matt Vaughan]

I've been trying to convince everyone of that for months and no one will buy it.

 

[Four Dogs]

I see you're from Boston. Are those Foxwoods sessions? I play there just about every weekend, mostly $1/$2. If you play on the weekends I probably know you by sight. Sorry to hear about the downswing. I know how you feel, I've had a bad year myself but things seem to be turning around, only down about $700 since December. If it wasn't for the heater I went on my first 200 hours of play I don't think I'd be playing anymore. If you're really confident that it's just a downswing then just keep grinding, you're bound to hit you're rush. GL

 

[Matt Vaughan]

I'm from Boston but in school in Cleveland - I've actually never been to Foxwoods. It's frustrating for sure, and no it's not 100% downswing, because I'm obviously not playing the best poker in the world, but I know I can beat 1/2. The players I play with are just SO bad it's absurd for the most part. Still waiting on a heater though. Or running standard.

 

[OMGITSOVER9K]

I think you're really bad tbf

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Thanks 9k

But in all seriousness, of course I'm bad - I play baby stakes online. But it's all relative, and these fish are the most whale-ish of the bunch!!

 

[Four Dogs]

I'm from Boston but in school in Cleveland - I've actually never been to Foxwoods. It's frustrating for sure, and no it's not 100% downswing, because I'm obviously not playing the best poker in the world, but I know I can beat 1/2. The players I play with are just SO bad it's absurd for the most part. Still waiting on a heater though. Or running standard.

There's no such thing as running standard. You're always running either above ev or below. The difference between being a winning player and a losing player is that your heaters are bigger and or more frequent than your coolers. There seem to be a few voices who think your losses have more to do with your ability than your luck and that may be so, only you know for sure. But keep in mind, most of them are probably losers themselves. Im talking poker of course, not life.

I've met many people far smarter than i am who just can't play a good hand of poker. its usually because being good just isn't a priority for them. they have careers or families or school. Did I hear you say you are a student? Well then, maybe that's what your priority should be. To be honest, being good at poker requires an unhealthy obsession with the game which is often at the expense of other aspects of your life. Poker is not a particularly worthwhile or productive pursuit and there's no shame in not having it mastered.

The good news is that you're probably not as bad as you think you are. The truth is that 95% of poker payers lose more than they win. if you took rake and tips out of the equation you might find that you're break even or even a little better. if your that close, then taking the next step into the plus column is no more than a matter of plugging some obvious leaks or bringing your A game more often than your C game. Are you playing too many weak hands, playing out of position, playing tired? Whatever it is, figure it out. And don't let other peoples opinion get you down. Nobody knows your ability or potential better than you.

Gotta go. Doing this on my phone at Takwondo practice. GL

 

[JOEBOB69]

Huh

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Thanks for the thoughtful response Four Dogs. You're of course right that there is no "running standard." I suppose I meant I wish I could even run "marginally above EV" for once. I'm well aware that luck is part of it, and even more aware that luck is NOT all of it. Part of being honest with myself about this game is realizing when I can improve my thinking in certain spots, vs. where I think I'm doing the right thing and the cards just don't fall my way or I run into tops of ranges, etc.

At the risk of sounding extremely pretentious, I'll say that I'm a fairly intelligent and thoughtful (not the same thing) individual, and I have realized that becoming as good as I want to be at poker will take more time, energy, and stress than I first thought about a year ago when I started taking the game more seriously.

As for it needing to be an "unhealthy obsession," I must respectfully disagree. While poker of course adds some stress to my life at times, it remains my favorite activity by far, even during its stressful times, and it does not take away from other aspects of my life. I'm not the most socially active person I know by any means, but poker did not create this dynamic. I'm not only an intelligent person, but a hard worker too, and poker has not gotten in the way of my being a student. My 4.0 for this semester was not shocking.

Again I have to disagree with your statement about poker not being a worthwhile pursuit. I consider poker to be a highly psychological, mathematical, and intellectual game, and I find that the effort I have poured into poker (particularly in the mental game arena) has spilled over into other parts of my life.

And you are once again right - I'm not a "bad player" by most people's definitions. I have surrounded myself with people who take the game seriously (probably already tending to be in the top 20% or better), and I have proven that I have a rudimentary understanding of theory etc (probably top 10% or so). So my standards for "good" and "bad" are somewhat different from what many would consider relevant.

But even more so than that is the fact that I like to be good at what I do. I won't lie - I believe I have the potential to be very good at poker if I apply my efforts in the right way. Whether I can have the discipline to follow through and balance my priorities is the main question.

I still have hope going forward with live poker, even if my first foray wasn't the success I, and most others, had expected.

Thank you again for your in depth response - part of what helps me move forward as a thinking player is encountering people who are also thoughtful about the game, from all perspectives (particularly ones different from my own).

Cheers.

 

[OMGITSOVER9K]

lol, im a poker loser!

 

[xdeucesx]

Solid post, even though I disagree with some of your points fourdogs.

Honestly Matt, I think your problem is you actually think too much. I tend to have the same problem sometimes, then realize that maybe the greatest skill of many players is being able to move into the mindset of a player dedicated to winning/understanding the game and going to the mindset of a fish, losing, recreational/get drunk and have fun on a friday night player. ( The overwhelming majority of 1/2 players)

Maybe their the same skill, idk, but I still think your a solid player despite a 4k hand runbad at live poker ( if 4k even lol)

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Actually my very last time I went to the casino I let myself get into a "whatever" mindset where I was just there to have fun - was there with a buddy, which I've only been able to do twice, so we sat together which was nice, and I knew the dealer and another player at the table. I felt really comfortable, and ended up making an enormous bluff that I actually thought was really solid but I wouldn't normally have been able to do because of being worried or whatever. (Unfortunately I think I had a backward tell on villain or he hollywooded or something, cause he turned up with the nuts lol.)

But I understand what you mean. Part of the nice thing about this summer is that I really won't even be able to play. And I'll be able to get more back to the pure enjoyment that I had in the beginning, when I was just super excited to even be touching real felt and chips. It's still fun for me now, but I think that those first few times felt like they had much lower pressure.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Also estimated 7k hand downswing lol.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

I know I keep letting this thread drop off a while and then resurrecting it, but meh, so goes poker sometimes for me.

Quick ish update. I'm grinding on Bovada, playing 10nl (for now), and it's going alright. Play is super soft, and I'm feeling very confident about my ability to move up.

That being said, I had a pretty interesting day yesterday in that, after having a sweat session with Marginal that went fairly well, I played 2 more sessions that day where I played pretty meh. Not spew-fest meh, but I know that I play a lot better when being sweated by someone.

Then today, I had a "sweat" session with Marginal and Ducky7, but really, all it involved was background conversation and the occasional comment about a hand I was in.

And I played really, really well. Not like "OMG HE'S THE NEXT IVEY," well, but I made very few mistakes, and the ones I did weren't enormous. Despite the sweat not really being a sweat, I still played better. I think the reason is that I knew there was a chance of being scrutinized. I'm embarrassed to say that I perform a lot better when I think someone is watching who may judge or criticize me. It causes me to focus more, and I think that this is big for me currently because I know there is a significant gap between my A and C games. With time, I'll work all my various poker abilities to the point of not even needing to focus, but for now there's too big of a gap.

So, the new sticky note on my desk says:

GRIND TIME
=
GRIND TIME

This is to stop me from "multitasking" (http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-power-prime/201103/technology-myth-multitasking), and make me focus 100% on the poker I'm playing. I play better, feel better about my sessions, and ultimately I'll move up faster (to where I'll be even more interested in being engaged and focused).

The tricky thing about Bovada is that they only allow you to multi-table up to 4 tables at once. Even at 6 max, this is no great feat, as in the past I'd play between 5 and 8. So for a number of sessions I'd be surfing the web or watching videos while grinding - but no more. I think that this will be good for me. I play better by far when I allow myself to take my time, make deliberate decisions, and really think through ranges (Bovada's shot clock seems to run a little slower than other sites I've played on).

So here are some goals for the next few weeks:
- Play at least an hour every weekday, and at least 2 hours on Saturday and Sunday each
- Don't multi-task at all while grinding
- Start up a blog (didn't mention this in the post, but have considered doing it in the past, and deuces brought it up recently)
- Session review -> anonymous tables is tough, but Bovada does release HHs that I can start making use of to review my play

Longer term:
- Move up -> I watched some tables of 25nl at Bovada and the play seems just horrific, and not much of a step up from 10nl
- Keep enjoying poker -> I read a blog post by Phil Galfond about Victor Blom, and it fit in nicely with this thought: I love poker, and I don't ever want that to change. It's a bit more than a hobby to me at this point, even if I'm not as strong a player yet as I'd like to be, so basically I want to keep playing it at levels that make me the most satisfied with my experience.


Bit of a rambling post here, so don't feel bad if you skimmed down to here with a "TL;DR" mentality. Cliffs are basically: I'm getting back into poker, Bovada is a bit weird but super-soft, and I'm loving the fact that I'm getting back into poker Also expect blog links soon.

 

[Aleksei]

Awesome go get em man

 

[Four Dogs]

Bit of a rambling post here, so don't feel bad if you skimmed down to here with a "TL;DR" mentality. Cliffs are basically: I'm getting back into poker, Bovada is a bit weird but super-soft, and I'm loving the fact that I'm getting back into poker Also expect blog links soon.

Not to much of a ramble, I read the whole thing.

It's been suggested that a lot of people play differently with hole cams. For most people, different might good because there's so many things they do wrong. I might suggest trying to remember what things you did or did not do because were conscious of being watched and then go through your HH's and see if those actions have been a problem.

And if you start a blog I'll subscribe. I've had tenbob Dakota's for ages. FPaulson's actually came alive again last week after being dormant for a couple of years.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Thanks for reading guys.

Yeah, it's incredible t me how I am still consistently (not just once in a while) picking up on things in my game that are pretty big. Not just minor leaks that need plugging, but large aspects either about how I approach grinding, or my mentality, etc. (Obv I still have a lot of technical leaks in my game as well though.)

And when I do start up the blog (hopefully today, with an intro post and maybe an interesting hand or two), I'll post a link in here. Thanks for the sub-promise

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Also this was a thing:

 

[Four Dogs]

Cool sweat. I didn't watch the whole thing but I will later on. I agree with much of what ducky says but in a few cases I think your instincts were correct. In one case you folded 22 IP to a 3.5x open. Folding here is usually correct but vs some opponents will show only a slight loss.

Later on you folded J8s from the BB and Ducky made a groaning sound indicating that he had dicovered some huge leak in your game. You asked if you should have 3 bet and he said that you can't fold there. I disagree, This is 6 max and you do have to open up a bit, but folding should be the normal play with a some 3 bets mixed in to keep a loose player honest. And if the PF raise had come from the button I'd say raising would be the best play. Go through your hand histories and see how well just calling with medium gappers does OP vs a raise. Even in 6 max I'd be very surprised if you were even as good as -20BB/100. 3 bet or fold.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Yeah, well I think there's something to be said for different players sticking to what they know to some degree. Ducky has a looser style than I do, although I tend to gravitate toward playing on the laggier side as well. For playing on this site where people are playing so loose passively I have tried to play a little tighter than I would by default.

But I think another point is that in terms of comfort level, Ducky knows that if he flats or 3bets J8s OOP, he's going to be fine in the spots that come up. He plays higher limits than I do, where these are more "standard" and even necessary plays to maintain balance and not let yourself be exploitable, etc. Ducky's also more solid postflop than I am, so he can be more liberal in his hand selection when playing against weaker opponents.

There will often be a technically best, +EV move in any given spot, but poker is still fairly individual. A +EV spot may no longer +EV if it gets me (personally) into a spot that causes me to play worse in general or make big mistakes. So while there is theoretically always a best move in any given spot, true EV is personal.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Also 2 technical points: it wasn't a sweat (watching while playing), it was a session review (after-the-fact), and that 22 hand was mostly folded because the guy who opened only had like 15 or 20 bb behind. It was an SPR issue.

 

[Four Dogs]

Also 2 technical points: it wasn't a sweat (watching while playing), it was a session review (after-the-fact), and that 22 hand was mostly folded because the guy who opened only had like 15 or 20 bb behind. It was an SPR issue.

So why was folding the 22 there even a question. Right in the muck it goes.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Have started my blog, but no posts yet. Just made this vid with Deuces last night on a session I had played earlier in the evening, so I will likely open my first blog post with it.

 

[Jackle43]

Nice vid man, keep them coming.
Will view again soon and comment on hands!

Do I live gameplay vid imo, they are more interesting I think.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

They can be more "interesting," but typically a lot harder to give good analysis in real time.

 

[Jackle43]

They can be more "interesting," but typically a lot harder to give good analysis in real time.

That is true. I just like hearing on the spot thought process. Seems more real haha

Still loved the vid