***Microstakes Stats Thread***

[honeycrush]

There's a lot of talk around the forum amongst those of us who use Holdem Manager or Poker Tracker so I thought it might be useful to start a thread where we can chat about all things statistical.

Any tips/advice welcome. Hopefully we can help each other through what can seem like a colossal task sometimes. Also if anyone would like to share any filters used to find leaks that would be cool.

I've also got Leakbuster and I think PT has something similar so discussion about those tools welcomed too.

Anyone who is just starting out with a tracker is also welcome to ask basic questions. I'm sure there'll be many of us who are able to help with that.

 

[Logan2]

First

want to start this with W$SD stat that was posting on Jake´s thread

This is kind of long but i bold the last part where show avg numbers

WTSD and W$SD – These two showdown stats can be used to help determine player types as well as looking for holes in your own game. WTSD numbers will vary for a few different reasons. Shorthanded games will typically raise your WTSD because they are shorthanded and they also tend to play more aggressively. Both of these attributes affect your overall handstrength. Hands like middle pair will be much stronger in these games and will show better results when getting shown down. On the same vein, the higher the stakes, the higher WTSD tends to be. One reason is the aggression aspect, but another is that you usually will not find yourself at the river again 4-5 other people very often. WTSD numbers are typically in the 30% range for FR, and 33-40 for 6max games, but will really vary depending on your table selection.

A higher than normal WTSD will show a player to basically be a calling station. These are the players which we should be RELENTLESSLY VALUE BETTING! If you fall into this category, you need to look at what hands you are showing down and why. Many of the people who fall into this category tend to be poor hand readers or never give any of their opponents any respect. When a player 3-bets preflop, and then bet/3-bets the flop, they usually will have a hand better than a pair of 8s on a AQ5 flop.

Players with real low WTSD stats are the weak-tight opponents which we as good players abuse. These players fold way too much and basically play fit or fold poker. There is 2 categories I put these players in. The first are the ones that peel a ton of flops, but give-up on the turn frequently. Against players like this, we should be more prone to fire that extra barrel w/ AK unimproved on the turn or value bet 3rd pair with the intent of it being the last money we put into the pot, etc. The other type is the kind that just gives up or folds too much in general. These often fit into the sub 15 VPIP category, but not always. We should be opening up our steal ranges and continuation betting near always against them. When these players get to the river though, we need to be careful with our thin value bets as these players tend to showdown only the goods.

W$SD is a stat that frequently correlates directly to WTSD. The fit or fold type players with low WTSD numbers will typically have very high W$SD pecentages. The players who see showdowns very frequently will have lower a W$SD. This should be very intuitive. A good range for W$SD is usually 50-55%. If your W$SD is much higher than 55%, you are probably folding to much. Likewise, you are calling down too much if this number is much lower than 50%.
​

 

[honeycrush]

Thanks Logan. Interesting post.

When I started looking more deeply at my stats in November, one of the things I found was that my WTSD was way too high - over 30% and my W$SD was way too low at around 40%. As said, this was because I was most definitely a calling station. I would call min raises on the river with medium strength hands which were of course never good.

Since changing this and giving up on the flop or turn more often, my WTSD has stabilised around 27% and my W$SD is around 51%. This has really improved my winrate.

What are yours like at the moment?

 

[pocketehs]

I'll come back to this after my session Logan but cafeman and I were just chatting about this and how you also have to take into account a villains openign range when looking at this.

Same for like CBs (or any stat really). like if a nit is 19/14 at 6m and cbet stats are 89/60/60 (F/T/R) it means hes tripling 32% of his range which seems like a lot but if hes only opening like 14% RFI from a specific spot then its not that wide at all.

this is also the same for postflop stats like WTSD/W$WSF/WSD because although villains stats may show that they are stationy or getting out of line it could also be that they just have a tighter range.

 

[Logan2]

Yeah, i guess that enter on this part ... but will really vary depending on your table selection. ...Which i don´t don´t get much.


My stats are little different on 2nl/5nl so will post separate.

2nl
WTSD: 27.4
W$SD: 51.6

5nl
WTSD: 26.2
W$SD: 57.9

avg on Fullring
WTSD:30
W$SD:50-55

By my WTSD i can see that i´m playing weak tight, even more on 5nl, i think i´m playing the other way than you Honeycrush, giving up a lot on turns and playing fit or fold.

my W$SD looks fine on 2nl but is really high on 5nl which was getting notice lately because playing almost nuts poker and not calling much and folding even 2nd nuts.

This take to the other stat that want to mention that is River Calling Efficiency stat.

Was reading that 1 is break even and 1.5-2.5 should be a good range.

My RCE is 1.98 on 2nl and 2.0 on 5nl, both close and on avg but i think is because when get to river usually have the nuts or close to that, i still do stupid call though so not sure what take from that one.

But i think the W$SD difference on 2nl/5nl do tell me something, and need to work more on that




​

 

[honeycrush]

Good stuff.

Pocketehs mentioned about general opening range and I think this definitely applies in your case. I don't think you'll mind me saying that you are on the nitty side. So that probably means that your should be on the higher end of the WTSD and W$SD range. But as you say, 57.9 is way too high and you're probably also missing value. Do you often raise the river when you have close to the nuts/feel you are likely to have best hand or do you just tend to call?

River call efficiency is definitely one of my leaks. I've improved it a little but it's still way to low. Currently 1.4% when it should be over 1.7%. Ideally it should be 1.7-2.5% so you're doing great. Obviously making a lot more good calls than stupid ones! I have got to try to follow in your footsteps. Sometimes I am still calling the river when faced with a small bet and feeling priced in but I must stop this. No point calling when you're almost 100% sure you have the worst hand!

 

[ScottishMatt]

Wrote a big post but FU back button.

In short, I think your WTSD numbers are off by some margin. Mine fluctuates between 19 and 26 depending on the table. Any higher than that and I can only see myself losing money. Where did you get those numbers Logan?

 

[tohos]

I think your WTSD numbers are off too. PTR says 21% to 33% is what winning players generally have. 30% actually seems to be in the higher range.

At 10NL I'm at 29%. My RCE is pretty crap at 1.5 I have a problem letting go of hands too often.

 

[honeycrush]

I've just checked HM2's recommended range for WTSD and it's listed as 23-28.2% so agreed, 30% seems too high.

It's probably debatable according to where you look but I think it's best to err on the side of caution and you should be aiming for the middle of the range anyway. I aim for 26%. At the moment mine is around 27% but I've noticed my old calling station habits slowly creeping back in. Got to put a stop to it now!

 

[Logan2]

The article where i read it mention Leak Buster as the source, but i don´t have Leak Buster so can´t check if true or not, but if Hem2 mention other range guess is really off. I guess my stats not that bad then with 26-27

W$ do appear 50-55 on different sources though.

Forget to mention that reading Polished Poker vol1 book, Jhon A post his stats there and his WTSD is 26.8 and W$ 51,
​

 

[Logan2]

But more than WTSD, what i´m taking is the W$ on my hud, above 55 i know people call less and mostly with a nut range on SD, where <50 people is calling a lot with the losing hand.

Yesterday hand that posted on my thread where villain have ThJh on a 4 spade board and try to bluff me off with me with the 2nd nuts he have W$ of 33, so can be a liner to see who bluff too much.
​

 

[BluffMeAllIn]

subbed, think this thread will be very informational. I use and understand most stats from the hud but haven't really done much work in analyzing them etc so this will be good.

 

[AlfieAA]

I though we were aiming for high WTSD and W$SD when playing microstakes?

Since we're only betting for value and the higher the level the lower the WTSD would be?

 

[honeycrush]

I though we were aiming for high WTSD and W$SD when playing microstakes?

Since we're only betting for value and the higher the level the lower the WTSD would be?

Yeah it's true that microstakes is "showdown" poker. But if your WTSD is over 30% then you're probably getting to too many showdowns with marginal hands (calling too much). And if your W$SD is over 60% then it means you're playing too tight and only going to showdown when you have near the absolute nuts. Okay at micros but probably going to get you in trouble later if you play too tight. Especially at 6max. At least that's my understanding of it all.

Hope you're well Alfie and running good!

 

[ScottishMatt]

Here is another thing as well guys. We can't think about our WTSD purely in the sense of how much we call down. There are plenty of times where I could check back on the turn/river with my SDV but I prefer to bet it.

 

[Wardy88]

Great thread. Subbed

I just checked my WTSD and W$SD and they are 19.35 and 50.82 respectively.

this looks like I'm way too tight but I know that I'm constantly going for thin value and thus rarely checking back with SDV, would this change the results?

Also I've only got 7000 hands so I think I need a larger sample size to know for sure.

 

[honeycrush]

Great thread. Subbed

I just checked my WTSD and W$SD and they are 19.35 and 50.82 respectively.

this looks like I'm way too tight but I know that I'm constantly going for thin value and thus rarely checking back with SDV, would this change the results?

Also I've only got 7000 hands so I think I need a larger sample size to know for sure.

What's your river agg stat? I think if it's quite high and you bet a lot of rivers then you'll get more folds so reach showdown less. Also what's your general AGG stat?

Here is another thing as well guys. We can't think about our WTSD purely in the sense of how much we call down. There are plenty of times where I could check back on the turn/river with my SDV but I prefer to bet it.

The more I look at these stats the more it seems that you really can't look at them in isolation and have to take other stats into account. What you're saying is the similar to Wardy above. If you have high turn/river agg and bet a lot then you will probably get to showdown less. On the other hand if you bet too often it probably means you're betting too thinly and will be called more and so lose more at SD. Does that sound right?

 

[AlfieAA]

Yeah it's true that microstakes is "showdown" poker. But if your WTSD is over 30% then you're probably getting to too many showdowns with marginal hands (calling too much). And if your W$SD is over 60% then it means you're playing too tight and only going to showdown when you have near the absolute nuts. Okay at micros but probably going to get you in trouble later if you play too tight. Especially at 6max. At least that's my understanding of it all.

Hope you're well Alfie and running good!

makes sense honey, never thought about it that way...totally get it now, good explanation ....look at you the hud stat wizz

i had a brain fart and thought that our WTSD would be 100% if we were playing perfect microstakes poker but offourse that cant be true with all the good folds we make v boards/ranges as the hand progresses......25-30% seems rather good now....thought it was pretty meh before you explained it lol....

im good thank you, grinding the stt/mtt one table at a time lol....got the hud up and running again so im interested in this thread and hope i can learn a thing or two more....would like to get back into cash games again once ive built my roll up abit...think i could crush 2nl in a couple of weeks 16 tabling or whatever then finally have a decent crack at 5nl...hope you're well and running good?

 

[Wardy88]

What's your river agg stat? I think if it's quite high and you bet a lot of rivers then you'll get more folds so reach showdown less. Also what's your general AGG stat?

My river aggression frequency is 48.78 and my total aggression frequency is 53.08, are these the stats you mean? I'm not sure exactly what these stats represent, are they the percentage of hands I raised when I had the chance to?

I don't know if these numbers are high enough to offset my WTSD stat, I need a stat that tells me how often my river raise was folded to don't I?

 

[redwards92]

So can anyone tell me what a good PF positional awareness stat is ?

I can't seem to find a consistent answer to this lol .

 

[Cafeman]

So can anyone tell me what a good PF positional awareness stat is ?

You should have pop ups that tell you what their RFI (Raise First In - basically the times they open for a raise when it's folded to them) by position, and that gives you a good indication of their positional awareness. Then of course you can look at their cold call pre by position, 3bet by position etc. All these things will give you an idea of their ranges and tendencies.

 

[redwards92]

You should have pop ups that tell you what their RFI (Raise First In - basically the times they open for a raise when it's folded to them) by position, and that gives you a good indication of their positional awareness. Then of course you can look at their cold call pre by position, 3bet by position etc. All these things will give you an idea of their ranges and tendencies.

Do you think a stat like PF positional awareness on HUD would be useful in some way for someone who doesn't always have much time to check info box for the more default spots in say like blind vs LP opens ?

Sometimes my not so high performance laptop lags up if i try to open up the popups and a lot of the time I have to act quickly because I am playing 8 zoom tables.

Either way I totally over look the stats you mentioned a lot of the time before I make decisions in tricky spots so thanks for pointing them out. I honestly haven't really ever used them to make a decision tbh and that is pretty sad lol :afraid::shot:

 

[Cafeman]

Yeah I hear you re underpowered laptops.

8 tables of Zoom, are you crazy?!

Right, well I have RFI on the HUD itself, and then I use pop ups for decisions about responding to 3bets and BvB and all that. I do use them. If I am opening in MP and get 3bet by a reg on whom I have a lot of hands, I would like to know how his tendencies and ranges shape up and use those to work out how I am going to respond. If he 3bets me from CO and has a v high 3bet in the CO compared to other positions, he obviously has a different range there to a reg who 3bets 2% from that position. I also make notes on the types of hands that show up that don't fit my expectations. All these things combined help me make better decisions.

TBH this thread could become a monster if we are more specific about spots rather than general things like opening ranges.

For example, I have a pop up specifically for BvB. How often do they open/fold/call/3bet. Before I open the SB I usually take a little looky

 

[honeycrush]

So can anyone tell me what a good PF positional awareness stat is ?

I can't seem to find a consistent answer to this lol .

Leakbuster recommends 1.7-3.1. I try to keep mine around 3 as I am only at microstakes and playing most hands in position is very important at the lowest stakes as it gives you an edge postflop. If you are more experienced then playing OOP is not so much of a problem. When you are playing higher stakes playing very tight from EP could be exploitable so the number would probably come down.

 

[ScottishMatt]

Leakbuster recommends 1.7-3.1. I try to keep mine around 3 as I am only at microstakes and playing most hands in position is very important at the lowest stakes as it gives you an edge postflop. If you are more experienced then playing OOP is not so much of a problem. When you are playing higher stakes playing very tight from EP could be exploitable so the number would probably come down.

Leakbuster recommends 1.7-3.1?

****