Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

[JCgrind]

Most of your pre-flop positional awareness comes from not opening the CO and button as much as you could, and opening the SB a little too much. You can probably get away with 42% at 10nl, but your button UO should be higher than your SB UO.

soz for derail, but wondering why it matters for me to increase positional awareness as a stat itself? like, im curious as to what a good winrate out of the small blind is? because i feel like im smashing it. if i run a filter looking for my profitability out of all positions where i RFI, SB is winning 10.6bb/100 with EVbb/100 of 19.10, and W$SD% of 53.8? unless of course you just mean that opening many many more buttons would be a good idea bc it would make me even more profitable from the button? in which case, is there a way we can filter to see winnings from each position as a function of # tables played? obviously we nit it up the more tables we play, but im curious to see how much EV i lose from dropping off the weak end of my LP opening range as the number of tables i play increases, and begin working on re-opening up my btn range some more

The rest look good though for the most part (minus 3-bet call%, that's way too high)

...heh, yeah. its embarrassing how lolwide it is, but i am aware. but yeah, i just really struggle to find folds with anything other than the obviously dominated Ax, QT type stuff. hoping this thread helps me sort that out

cheers

 

[sidgucci]

John, prior to this software coming out, how did the elite players come about understanding their equity on various board textures and how do you think they practiced to better improve their game? It's my understanding this is a one of a kind type of software program and it's new to the market.

FYI, I went ahead and made the bundle purchase today and can't wait to put in many hours of repetitive training. It's time to catch up with the best of the best and even the playing field a bit.

 

[John A]

soz for derail, but wondering why it matters for me to increase positional awareness as a stat itself? like, im curious as to what a good winrate out of the small blind is? because i feel like im smashing it. if i run a filter looking for my profitability out of all positions where i RFI, SB is winning 10.6bb/100 with EVbb/100 of 19.10, and W$SD% of 53.8? unless of course you just mean that opening many many more buttons would be a good idea bc it would make me even more profitable from the button? in which case, is there a way we can filter to see winnings from each position as a function of # tables played? obviously we nit it up the more tables we play, but im curious to see how much EV i lose from dropping off the weak end of my LP opening range as the number of tables i play increases, and begin working on re-opening up my btn range some more

Like I explained, the pre-flop positional awareness stat is a ratio of opened pots in position versus out of position. The basics of any rotational poker game is you want to play as many pots as you can in position versus out of position (this kind of goes without saying of course). Right now, you can exploit this stat, so yes, again, that means open more from the CO and button. Your SB is fine, and you can get away with opening that wide at these stakes. As you move up, you're going to get 3-bet to all craziness if you open that wide (and you should based on your range against competent opponents).

...heh, yeah. its embarrassing how lolwide it is, but i am aware. but yeah, i just really struggle to find folds with anything other than the obviously dominated Ax, QT type stuff. hoping this thread helps me sort that out

cheers

Run some filters on how you're playing non-premium hands when you're calling 3-bets. There are some filters in this thread that you can download. Maybe you're picking really good spots and playing them well. In general, with 100 BB effective stacks, you need to pick the ideal opponents and spots to show profitability.

 

[JCgrind]

In general, with 100 BB effective stacks, you need to pick the ideal opponents and spots to show profitability.

i play deep ante games, with the bulk of my hands being logged between 150-350bb deep

 

[John A]

John, prior to this software coming out, how did the elite players come about understanding their equity on various board textures and how do you think they practiced to better improve their game? It's my understanding this is a one of a kind type of software program and it's new to the market.

FYI, I went ahead and made the bundle purchase today and can't wait to put in many hours of repetitive training. It's time to catch up with the best of the best and even the playing field a bit.

Players gained this kind of understanding by playing tons of hands, and most of it was done intuitively until the internet players came along and started breaking down the hand ranges and math. And even once the internet players started doing this, it still took tons of hands, and lots of time punching in hands and situations into equity calculators. Ace poker drills just cuts down all that time and learning curve. Again, that's why I decided to develop it.

Let me know how it goes for you. Again, appreciate all the plugs!

 

[John A]

i play deep ante games, with the bulk of my hands being logged between 150-350bb deep

Yeah, so that will make a significant difference. I'd just run some filters for how you're playing those spots so you can make sure you're going ok, and if there's anything you might want to tweak.

 

[Figaroo2]

3 betting more is getting me into trouble

Yuk running really bad felted about 8 times this month.
3 under sets doesnt help along with hands like this.
Im down $40 but still showing +10.4 bb/100??


Party, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

UTG+1: $15.07 (150.7 bb)
Hero (UTG+2): $15.31 (153.1 bb) vpip 24/13/ 3 bet 2.6
MP1: $26.03 (260.3 bb) VPIP 82% 3 bet 10% already felted me and another reg player all in preflop and five betting me every time I open. limps every hand if I fold
MP2: $5.93 (59.3 bb) VPIP 74% limping tilting lost $5 to me a few hands ago
MP3: $24.45 (244.5 bb)
CO: $2.61 (26.1 bb)
BTN: $4.59 (45.9 bb)
SB: $10 (100 bb)
BB: $8.58 (85.8 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with Js Jh
UTG+1 folds, Hero raises to $0.20, MP1 calls $0.20, MP2 calls $0.20, 4 folds, BB calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.85) 5d 3s Td (4 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.60, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $0.60, BB folds

Turn: ($2.05) Th (2 players)
Hero bets $0.97, MP2 calls $0.97

River: ($3.99) 2s (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets $3.80, Hero calls $3.80. I thought about this for a while, i didnt put him on a 10 he would have raised the turn it smelled like a busted diamond draw, obviously can't put him his actual hand

Results: $11.59 pot ($0.57 rake)
Final Board: 5d 3s Td Th 2s
Hero mucked Js Jh and lost (-$5.57 net)
MP2 showed 6h 4s and won $11.02 ($5.45 net)

 

[Figaroo2]

 

[John A]

Put up hands where you've 3-bet but not sure about how you played the hand.

This hand, you need to raise more pre-flop, bet more on the flop and turn. I'd also probably bet small/call the river since a tilting fish will call any 5x,3x that he might check behind. It will also induce some desperate river bluffs even though stacks aren't great. Bet something like $1, can still get a fish to shove bluffs while getting value from his weak hands he'll call with but will will likely check behind.

 

[Figaroo2]

Actually it took me a while to find raised hand, I wasn't happy about, I've had several hands were the villain called and then hit the flop hard. There aren;t many like this one.

poker stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

UTG+1: $4 (40 bb)
UTG+2: $10.91 (109.1 bb)
MP1: $10 (100 bb)
MP2: $8.24 (82.4 bb)
MP3: $4.15 (41.5 bb)
CO: $26.27 (262.7 bb)
BTN: $13.73 (137.3 bb)
SB: $8.13 (81.3 bb) VPIP 30 PF 7 AG 2.0 3b 0 in 69 hands
Hero (BB): $9.89 (98.9 bb) VPIP 19 PF10 AG 1.8 3B 8,3 in 83 hands

Preflop: Hero is BB with Qc Kc
7 folds, SB raises to $0.20, Hero raises to $0.60, SB calls $0.40

Flop: ($1.20) Jh 9s 5d (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.60, SB raises to $1.30, Hero calls $0.70 ( I wanted to peel one with a gutshot and two overs

Turn: ($3.80) 4s (2 players)
SB bets $1.20, Hero folds

Results: $3.80 pot ($0.17 rake)
Final Board: Jh 9s 5d 4s
SB mucked and won $3.63 ($1.73 net)
Hero mucked Qc Kc and lost (-$1.90 net)

 

[John A]

Having position, I think you played it fine. Ideally you want someone who is opening a little more, but a min raise, and you have position, I think this is ok. If most of the hands you're playing like this you feel ok about, then what's the issue you're having?

 

[Figaroo2]

Having done a fuller review its not actually the 3 betting that is the problem. I thought it was causing me to get it in light but that wasn't the case. Sorry.
One of the hands that has cost me recently is 3 betting JJ. I agree with your workbook that 3betting JJ reduces your equity against most opponents 3bet calling range. If they call and an ace flops its trouble more often than not.
I have tried calling a little more often in position but find its more difficult to range your opponent when just calling.
Recently I 3 bet JJ got a 10 high flop and then got felted by a slow played KK. I'm trying to get back to the mantra of not going broke with one pair hands.
I shall persevere with the 3 betting.

 

[John A]

Understanding your opponents range will come with experience. A combination of their aggression, board texture, bet sizing, etc... will give you an idea of what their exact range is. It's not going to happen over night, but it's something you should work on all the time.

Try this exercise:
1)Set a filter in your database for all hands that went to showdown.
2) Disable showing known hole cards for your your opponents hands in your replayer.
3) Look at hands that at least over a month old.
4) Replay them and guesstimate your equity, and your opponents range on each street.
5) Grade yourself on how close you got. Rinse and repeat as often as you can.

Then you'll be making solid reads like this

saw flop|saw showdown

MP ($627)
Hero ($1161)
Button ($1955.50)
SB ($1549)
BB ($1410)
UTG ($1177)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Qc, As.
2 folds, Hero raises to $40, Button raises to $140, 2 folds, Hero raises to $310, Button calls $170.

Flop: ($635) 3d, 7s, 2d (2 players)
Hero bets $250, Button raises to $1360, Hero calls $601 (All-In).

Turn: ($2906) 3c (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($2906) 5s (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $2906

Results in white below:
Hero has Qc As (one pair, threes).
Button has 6d Jd (one pair, threes).
Outcome: Hero wins $2337.

 

[JCgrind]

^ HH is gross. even more gross bc vil is favourite and its still the correct call.

 

[John A]

lol... well, it's pretty close to 50/50 against his exact hand, but when he called the 4-bet I pretty much put him on some kind of suited hand, so I was hoping I'd get a lot of his Ax range to shove the flop. Obviously you need to be pretty accurate about your reads making these kinds of plays. Villain was a good LAG regular and there's a ton of dynamics going on.

 

[Figaroo2]

Ok rather than playing this evening I've spent a couple of hours reviewing hands that went to showdown using HM2.
I went back and reviewed hands from May this year. it was mainly 2-5c
This was a useful exercise I suggest others try it as well
My findings
1. I was and still am putting players on flush draws way too often. They are usually calling with 2nd/3rd pair and or backdoor combos.
2, Two checks really does mean they don't have anything and some more bluffs in these circumstances will have netted me a much extra value.
3, Players with aggression factors over 3 will often take a shot at the pot on the flop or turn with air and then slow down if called.
4. Big bets and re-raises on the turn or river usually mean the nuts especially at the lower stakes
5. Most are calling with any old garbage in the big blind.
6. Fish call to the river with any pair or back door flush run combos then check when they miss or bet big when they hit.... I was missing way to much thin value on the river by checking back.
7. I had regular good chuckle at the total garbage I was seeing a lot of opponents with at showdown.
8. As an exercise I'm generally pretty good at judging players ranges from their combined vpip and pfr stats, I actually think I'm quite strong in this area (I am an analyst in the real world) and I have been working on the ace poker drills equity trainer.
9, I was opening too early and calling with too many trouble hands, some thing I have now rectified. I am now happy with my preflop play.
10. Did I really call some of those hands which were obviously the nuts oh dear..

 

[Figaroo2]

This was the most unusual hand i came across a str flush v quads

Party, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players

Hero (SB): $1.98 (99 bb)
BTN: $1.60 (80 bb)
UTG: $1.11 (55.5 bb)
CO: $2 (100 bb)
MP: $2.46 (123 bb)
BB: $1.74 (87 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Ks 9s
UTG calls $0.02, MP folds, CO raises to $0.06, BTN folds, Hero calls $0.05, BB calls $0.04, UTG calls $0.04

Flop: ($0.24) Js Td Ts (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, CO bets $0.17, Hero calls $0.17, BB calls $0.17, UTG folds

Turn: ($0.75) Qs (3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, CO checks

River: ($0.75) Qc (3 players)
Hero bets $1.75 and is all-in, BB calls $1.51 and is all-in, CO folds

Results: $3.77 pot ($0.18 rake)
Final Board: Js Td Ts Qs Qc
Hero showed Ks 9s and won $3.59 ($1.85 net)
CO mucked and lost (-$0.23 net)
BB mucked Tc Th and lost (-$1.74 net)

 

[John A]

Good. Thanks for sharing, and those are good things to make sure you learn from. Well done!

Yeah, that's a brutal hand above. I just had one of those brutal sessions where variance slams you all at once in one sittings. SIX trip over trip hands and I didn't have the better trips once. One set over set and 2 flush over flushes in a 2 hour session. Had to just quit. Amazingly only lost 5 buy-ins, but when variance slams you that hard it's best to just stop even though I wasn't tilting, and was actually playing some extremely good poker. Quitting is winning.

 

[Figaroo2]

Yikes John that is a dreadful bad run. If that is happening I just change sites which I will do if I lose 2 buy ins in a short period. I usually find I run fine elsewhere. If I lose more than two buy ins I find it almost impossible not to chase.
I love Phil Gordon's advice 'look for a brown table,,,the kitchen table'...
Do you want to post a few hands so we can feedback our thoughts to you?

 

[John A]

Ha... thanks. No, I'm good. I could post a few hands, but really I played fine. It was just one of those anomalies. I don't really think there's any hands that I questioned. I made some really good river over bluff shoves, make a great K high call in a medium sized pot.

I want to move on with some of the 3-betting stuff. Anyone who wants to post their positional stats we can go over them together, but a great way to increase your 3-betting in position is to incorporate more quasi 3-betting hands into your game.

 

[John A]

So let's push on to easy calls to 3-bets (pg. 81+).

I want everyone who reads this thread become a master at playing in 3-bet pots. We need to cover a lot of ground, and this chapter is a good model to use, but there's still even more we can cover. So if you want to learn and participate, here's your change:

1) What are the most difficult things for you about playing in 3-bet pots?

2) How are you playing in them on the turn?

3) Are you able to turn second, third and worse hands into bluffs profitably?

 

[Figaroo2]

Not when this happens, running really bad this month.
I was playing lower limits testing out using PokerTableStats gold after winning a free license!

UTG+2: $2.22 (111 bb)
MP1: $1.91 (95.5 bb)
MP2: $1.36 (68 bb)
MP3: $0.92 (46 bb)
CO: $2.21 (110.5 bb)
BTN: $4.28 (214 bb)
SB: $1.69 (84.5 bb)
Hero (BB): $3.89 (194.5 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Qs Qh
2 folds, MP2 raises to $0.07, 3 folds, SB calls $0.06, Hero raises to $0.28, MP2 calls $0.21, SB calls $0.21

Flop: ($0.84) Jd Qd 9h (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.60, MP2 folds, SB calls $0.60

Turn: ($2.04) Kd (2 players)
SB bets $0.81 and is all-in, Hero calls $0.81

River: ($3.66) 4s (2 players, 1 is all-in)

Results: $3.66 pot ($0.13 rake)
Final Board: Jd Qd 9h Kd 4s
SB showed 8c Tc and won $3.53 ($1.84 net)
Hero mucked Qs Qh and lost (-$1.69 net)

Lost this hand and then shortly after AA v 88 and QQ v 88 losing all in to sets had to quit for the night. tilted

 

[Figaroo2]

3 betting more

This months stats, previously i was only 3 betting AA KK QQ AK. Adding in more now. overall 3 bet success is 41%
If called a 3/4 pot sized c bet is taking it down around 50% and c bet on turn 100%
Raised 3 bet up to 6.1% this last week

 

[John A]

Good... so you're starting to print money in this area. That's a huge improvement.

I'm going to be picking a new free coaching student here as well. By the end of this week I'll pick someone who is active in the thread.

 

[JCgrind]

So let's push on to easy calls to 3-bets (pg. 81+).

I want everyone who reads this thread become a master at playing in 3-bet pots. We need to cover a lot of ground, and this chapter is a good model to use, but there's still even more we can cover. So if you want to learn and participate, here's your change:

1) What are the most difficult things for you about playing in 3-bet pots?

playing in too many of them bc i have a terrible habit of being a PF station anyway, and am much worse while mass multitabling.

2) How are you playing in them on the turn?

Question is so broad, so much to cover....
i am very aggressive and bluffy in 3b pots, particularly IP OTF. As the 3ber, I double barrel vs anyone who has a 60% or less FCbet3BPot w virtually ATC when bluffing, and generally x/shove turns with my value hands vs floaters.

3) Are you able to turn second, third and worse hands into bluffs profitably?
99% sure i am, but would love to be able to confirm with relevant filters....

obviously doing far better as 3ber than vs 3bs. image is overall results using '3bet=YES, called3b=YES'. cant get any data to appear in any of the positional reports though so cant check profitability (or lack thereof) by position which is annoying. if anyone could help me with this that;d be great.

note that since ive only really played 10-16-25deep since i reset my databass, so even though it looks like im doing well, i fail at higher stakes (50NL+) when facing 3bs IP and OOP