Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

[John A]

Re-reading it, I was trying to think of a better way I could say it. Maybe I can pull out the specific numbers so it's crystal clear what I mean. All I was saying is that the amount of equity you lose with JJ when you 3-bet it and get called is much more than when you 3-bet AQo and your called. But I can see how that may be confusing so thanks for bringing it up.

At the start of CHapter 7: 3-Betting you are saying that "removing a lot of your opponent's small pairs and marginal hands increases your equity with a high un-paired hand like AQo, but decreases with a big pair (JJ)".

The thing is that in your equity simulator AQo has :

57.64% vs calling a CO open of 29.5 and
48.97 % vs CO 3-Bet calling range,

So the equity is decreasing actually. I'm a little bit confuse here.

 

[4BlaBla]

I understand now. Thanks!

 

[Sneaky Feet]

Good morning. I can't believe my luck! I really didn't think I had any! That's why I wanted to learn how to play poker because it's less about luck and more about skill. But coming across this site, then by chance this thread, has blown my mind.

One of my goals for this year is to learn poker strategy. I am a very new player and would like to know if I can join this thread?

John, Thanks for offering your knowledge for the price of good karma. I have read the last 3 chapters and have already learned more than I could imagine.

 

[swingro]

I just downloaded the trial version of Poker Coach. Is this kind of software good ?
Does it consider the type of players I am playing with?
I tested the challenge it has and I had the impression that the software was some kind of LAG Calling Station.
Some of the advices were good but some of them looked like Sience Fiction to me.

 

[John A]

Good morning. I can't believe my luck! I really didn't think I had any! That's why I wanted to learn how to play poker because it's less about luck and more about skill. But coming across this site, then by chance this thread, has blown my mind.

One of my goals for this year is to learn poker strategy. I am a very new player and would like to know if I can join this thread?

John, Thanks for offering your knowledge for the price of good karma. I have read the last 3 chapters and have already learned more than I could imagine.

Yes, you are welcome to join. It's going to be an ongoing discussion. Glad you found us.

 

[John A]

I just downloaded the trial version of Poker Coach. Is this kind of software good ?
Does it consider the type of players I am playing with?
I tested the challenge it has and I had the impression that the software was some kind of LAG Calling Station.
Some of the advices were good but some of them looked like Sience Fiction to me.

Why are you posting about this in here? Can you beat it? Your question / statement doesn't even make sense. There's tons of different personality and player types you're against. Some are bad LAGs, some are good LAGs, some are tag, some are fish. It's still beta. If you have questions about it, you can post elsewhere or PM me in private.

 

[swingro]

Why are you posting about this in here? Can you beat it? Your question / statement doesn't even make sense. There's tons of different personality and player types you're against. Some are bad LAGs, some are good LAGs, some are tag, some are fish. It's still beta. If you have questions about it, you can post elsewhere or PM me in private.

Well I went to pokersoftware to see about Leak Buster 4.0 . While there I bumped into those lots of software tools. I went to the training section and I downloaded this one to see what it is about. I thought it would be nice to run some simulations of the examples in your book.
I also saw the Challenge option and thought to give it a try HU 0.5/1 against the computer. After one hour I had a 4BI stack.
I had to ask a real coach if a coaching software will be of any help. It is cheaper until I will afford a real coach.
I know it has nothing to do with the thread but here is where you can be find most of the time and you are a real coach.

 

[John A]

Well I went to pokersoftware to see about Leak Buster 4.0 . While there I bumped into those lots of software tools. I went to the training section and I downloaded this one to see what it is about. I thought it would be nice to run some simulations of the examples in your book.
I also saw the Challenge option and thought to give it a try HU 0.5/1 against the computer. After one hour I had a 4BI stack.
I had to ask a real coach if a coaching software will be of any help. It is cheaper until I will afford a real coach.
I know it has nothing to do with the thread but here is where you can be find most of the time and you are a real coach.

I'm not even sure what you're talking about though. There's no HU's option in ace poker coach right now. What product specifically are you talking about?

But in general, software and poker coaching is the best option. Software can be used to help you figure out certain things about your game, and then refined with a coach.

 

[swingro]

Lol. I just find out that it is a Ace Poker Coach. It actually looks a lot better than what I found and it costs less. Poker Coach 2 is what I found.

 

[John A]

Lol. I just find out that it is a Ace Poker Coach. It actually looks a lot better than what I found and it costs less. Poker Coach 2 is what I found.

I'm not understanding what you're saying though. You are saying you were using Poker Coach 2 and not Ace Poker coach? I assume that's the case because APC does not have HU's right now.

 

[Figaroo2]

A nice example of how three betting from the button can pay off
Probably could have just called this deep stacked what do you think?

Full Tilt, 30/60 blinds No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 9 Players
UTG+2: 3,050 (50.8 bb)
MP1: 3,603 (60.1 bb)
MP2: 11,346 (189.1 bb)
MP3: 1,742 (29 bb)
CO: 2,250 (37.5 bb)
Hero (BTN): 10,317 (172 bb)
SB: 979 (16.3 bb)
BB: 2,542 (42.4 bb)
UTG+1: 3,597 (60 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with 6h 7h
3 folds, MP2 raises to 150, 2 folds, Hero raises to 420, 2 folds, MP2 calls 270

Flop: (930) 4s 6c 6s (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets 540, MP2 calls 540

Turn: (2,010) 4c (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets 1,020, MP2 calls 1,020

River: (4,050) 9c (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets 2,700, MP2 raises to 6,480, Hero raises to 8,337 and is all-in, MP2 calls 1,857

Results: 20,724 pot
Final Board: 4s 6c 6s 4c 9c
MP2 mucked Ac Tc and lost (-10,317 net)
Hero showed 6h 7h and won 20,724 (10,407 net)

 

[swingro]

I'm not understanding what you're saying though. You are saying you were using Poker Coach 2 and not Ace Poker coach? I assume that's the case because APC does not have HU's right now.

No. Because I did not know that APC exists. I had downloaded the Ace Poker Drills but was not curious that time to look for the other software your page provided.
I can say now that Ace Poker Coach is quite different from Poker Coach 2. APC is giving you interactive advice while playing a session. Poker Coach has the option to import hands and analyze them or play a session and analyze it after, using some kind of pokerstove.
Anyway. I got to the conclusion that I should buy APC and Drills and sign up for the Roots program on Poker Zion. Only testing them I found that I have more things to learn than I had imagine. Postflop i suck big time. I had an ideea before. But learning poker is like going to college. You need a very well defined plan.

 

[John A]

It must be a language thing. I think you meant yes. But any ways, I understand now. I just didn't understand why you were posting in here about it.

Any ways.... play on.

 

[Sneaky Feet]

A nice example of how three betting from the button can pay off
Probably could have just called this deep stacked what do you think?

Full Tilt, 30/60 blinds No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 9 Players
UTG+2: 3,050 (50.8 bb)
MP1: 3,603 (60.1 bb)
MP2: 11,346 (189.1 bb)
MP3: 1,742 (29 bb)
CO: 2,250 (37.5 bb)
Hero (BTN): 10,317 (172 bb)
SB: 979 (16.3 bb)
BB: 2,542 (42.4 bb)
UTG+1: 3,597 (60 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with 6h 7h
3 folds, MP2 raises to 150, 2 folds, Hero raises to 420, 2 folds, MP2 calls 270

Flop: (930) 4s 6c 6s (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets 540, MP2 calls 540

Turn: (2,010) 4c (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets 1,020, MP2 calls 1,020

River: (4,050) 9c (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets 2,700, MP2 raises to 6,480, Hero raises to 8,337 and is all-in, MP2 calls 1,857

Results: 20,724 pot
Final Board: 4s 6c 6s 4c 9c
MP2 mucked Ac Tc and lost (-10,317 net)
Hero showed 6h 7h and won 20,724 (10,407 net)

Nice hand and nice play. These types of hands still make me nervous, even on the button. I'm still learning to step away from what I would consider TAG and implement the three betting rules on some of the checking range like this one.

John, thanks for letting me join I'm excited to learn more!

 

[Sneaky Feet]

Ok rather than playing this evening I've spent a couple of hours reviewing hands that went to showdown using HM2.
I went back and reviewed hands from May this year. it was mainly 2-5c
This was a useful exercise I suggest others try it as well
My findings
1. I was and still am putting players on flush draws way too often. They are usually calling with 2nd/3rd pair and or backdoor combos.
2, Two checks really does mean they don't have anything and some more bluffs in these circumstances will have netted me a much extra value.
3, Players with aggression factors over 3 will often take a shot at the pot on the flop or turn with air and then slow down if called.
4. Big bets and re-raises on the turn or river usually mean the nuts especially at the lower stakes
5. Most are calling with any old garbage in the big blind.
6. Fish call to the river with any pair or back door flush run combos then check when they miss or bet big when they hit.... I was missing way to much thin value on the river by checking back.
7. I had regular good chuckle at the total garbage I was seeing a lot of opponents with at showdown.
8. As an exercise I'm generally pretty good at judging players ranges from their combined vpip and pfr stats, I actually think I'm quite strong in this area (I am an analyst in the real world) and I have been working on the ace poker drills equity trainer.
9, I was opening too early and calling with too many trouble hands, some thing I have now rectified. I am now happy with my preflop play.
10. Did I really call some of those hands which were obviously the nuts oh dear..

I have implemented number 2 on your list and even on a really dry board after the turn and completely out of my range, I've still been stealing pots with a 1/2 pot bet. Great info!

 

[Fisi]

A nice example of how three betting from the button can pay off
Probably could have just called this deep stacked what do you think?

Full Tilt, 30/60 blinds No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 9 Players
UTG+2: 3,050 (50.8 bb)
MP1: 3,603 (60.1 bb)
MP2: 11,346 (189.1 bb)
MP3: 1,742 (29 bb)
CO: 2,250 (37.5 bb)
Hero (BTN): 10,317 (172 bb)
SB: 979 (16.3 bb)
BB: 2,542 (42.4 bb)
UTG+1: 3,597 (60 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with 6h 7h
3 folds, MP2 raises to 150, 2 folds, Hero raises to 420, 2 folds, MP2 calls 270

Flop: (930) 4s 6c 6s (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets 540, MP2 calls 540

Turn: (2,010) 4c (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets 1,020, MP2 calls 1,020

River: (4,050) 9c (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets 2,700, MP2 raises to 6,480, Hero raises to 8,337 and is all-in, MP2 calls 1,857

Results: 20,724 pot
Final Board: 4s 6c 6s 4c 9c
MP2 mucked Ac Tc and lost (-10,317 net)
Hero showed 6h 7h and won 20,724 (10,407 net)

Hmm, not sure about 3-betting this one. There is a super short stack in the SB, who is probably getting it in wide. Do you have any reads that MP2 folds a lot to 3-bets? If not I am probably calling if the SB is not really active, or folding if he is. Other than that, wp. I would have only bet the turn a bit bigger, something like 1400-1600, putting him on a medium pair or a spade draw mostly.

 

[Figaroo2]

This was from the Raptor on Full tilt last night and helped me win the CC hoodie for best finish in the Full Tilt card chat invasion.
Having reviewed the stack sizes again 3-betting here wasn't necessary at all as the stack sizes are over 170bb. Also I hadn't seen the shortie in the SB well spotted Fisi.
3-betting does give you the initiative though and helped to get more money into the pot early thus making it easier for all the stacks to go in.
The turn gives us a full house, if we bet too much here we can chase him off if he has AK or similar. I actually put him on an over pair something like 77-jj..in which case he only has 2 outs.
Better imo to keep him in and hope he calls a river bet, which looks likely at those stacks, he will want to see what I have and to keep me honest.
As it happens he connects an Ace high flush. Stacks in...happy days and around 350bigs

 

[John A]

Hmm, not sure about 3-betting this one. There is a super short stack in the SB, who is probably getting it in wide. Do you have any reads that MP2 folds a lot to 3-bets? If not I am probably calling if the SB is not really active, or folding if he is. Other than that, wp. I would have only bet the turn a bit bigger, something like 1400-1600, putting him on a medium pair or a spade draw mostly.

With ~16bbs, you can't really worry too much about the SB. That's generally not a deciding factor when hero has a stack this size. After a raise and 3-bet, SB's jam range is going to be pretty narrow. Worst case is SB does jam, hero probably still have 30% equity versus his range, but hero loses and knocks off 16bbs from his 172 bbs stack.

I'm typically not a fan of 3-betting small SC's, but in a tourney deep with position, this is perfectly fine. NH.

 

[Sneaky Feet]

So I'm posting this because this is most definitely one of my biggest leaks. I was doing pretty well at the table and felt fairly confident that I could open up a bit. I was really working on taking my time in each hand because I tend to rush through and want to close out my opponent earlier than what I could, hence not making as much as I possible. I felt fairly good and then this happens. I was light on the value bet I know but I'm posting this to see how far ahead I should have known. I ended the session shortly after and finished even so nothing lost but I'm hoping for some insight gained.




PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

SB ($2.17)
BB ($2.50)
UTG ($2.18)
Hero (UTG+1) ($2.05)
MP1 ($1.97)
MP2 ($1.93)
MP3 ($1.50)
CO ($2.26)
Button ($1.47)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 10d, Jd
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.06, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.06, 5 folds

Flop: ($0.15) 3c, 7d, Qd (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets $0.14, Hero calls $0.14

Turn: ($0.43) 2c (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets $0.14, Hero raises to $0.28, MP2 calls $0.14

River: ($0.99) 10c (2 players)
Hero bets $0.44, MP2 calls $0.44

Total pot: $1.87 | Rake: $0.07



Sorry lost part of the hand. Villain had KK and took the pot

 

[Figaroo2]

You should legitimately semibluff bet here on the flop with your flush draw. on that flop texture you will take it down more often than not.
Once called you should assume he has a Q and is going to call again unless aK or A hits. So you should check the turn hope for a free card. He will nearly away bet the turn here. Call if you get decent odds or just fold, you aren't drawing to the nut flush you don't have any overcards and if the flush card arrives the flush is out there and he shouldnt pay off much. I think your check raise bluff is too ambitious here. It is one way to take this down but you need to bet very large to pull it off.

 

[Sneaky Feet]

You should legitimately semibluff bet here on the flop with your flush draw. on that flop texture you will take it down more often than not.
Once called you should assume he has a Q and is going to call again unless aK or A hits. So you should check the turn hope for a free card. He will nearly away bet the turn here. Call if you get decent odds or just fold, you aren't drawing to the nut flush you don't have any overcards and if the flush card arrives the flush is out there and he shouldnt pay off much. I think your check raise bluff is too ambitious here. It is one way to take this down but you need to bet very large to pull it off.

Awesome. I will semi bluff the pot next time. I usually do but I didnt this time. I'm not really sure why. Thanks for the read.

Now if villain were to 3bet me on the flop, would this have been a good opportunity for a 4bet? I read ahead a bit.... Or does this give us a cheap fold to save ourselves for a better position?

 

[Fisi]

This was from the Raptor on Full tilt last night and helped me win the CC hoodie for best finish in the Full Tilt card chat invasion.
Having reviewed the stack sizes again 3-betting here wasn't necessary at all as the stack sizes are over 170bb. Also I hadn't seen the shortie in the SB well spotted Fisi.
3-betting does give you the initiative though and helped to get more money into the pot early thus making it easier for all the stacks to go in.
The turn gives us a full house, if we bet too much here we can chase him off if he has AK or similar. I actually put him on an over pair something like 77-jj..in which case he only has 2 outs.
Better imo to keep him in and hope he calls a river bet, which looks likely at those stacks, he will want to see what I have and to keep me honest.
As it happens he connects an Ace high flush. Stacks in...happy days and around 350bigs

With ~16bbs, you can't really worry too much about the SB. That's generally not a deciding factor when hero has a stack this size. After a raise and 3-bet, SB's jam range is going to be pretty narrow. Worst case is SB does jam, hero probably still have 30% equity versus his range, but hero loses and knocks off 16bbs from his 172 bbs stack.

I'm typically not a fan of 3-betting small SC's, but in a tourney deep with position, this is perfectly fine. NH.

Looking at it again I can see why 3-betting is a good play. I've misread the situation of being deep as something that isn't in our favour, neglecting the implied value of our hand and manouvering space we will have being in position postflop.

Congrats on the win Figaroo!

 

[Fisi]

So I'm posting this because this is most definitely one of my biggest leaks. I was doing pretty well at the table and felt fairly confident that I could open up a bit. I was really working on taking my time in each hand because I tend to rush through and want to close out my opponent earlier than what I could, hence not making as much as I possible. I felt fairly good and then this happens. I was light on the value bet I know but I'm posting this to see how far ahead I should have known. I ended the session shortly after and finished even so nothing lost but I'm hoping for some insight gained.




PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

SB ($2.17)
BB ($2.50)
UTG ($2.18)
Hero (UTG+1) ($2.05)
MP1 ($1.97)
MP2 ($1.93)
MP3 ($1.50)
CO ($2.26)
Button ($1.47)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 10d, Jd
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.06, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.06, 5 folds

Flop: ($0.15) 3c, 7d, Qd (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets $0.14, Hero calls $0.14

Turn: ($0.43) 2c (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets $0.14, Hero raises to $0.28, MP2 calls $0.14

River: ($0.99) 10c (2 players)
Hero bets $0.44, MP2 calls $0.44

Total pot: $1.87 | Rake: $0.07



Sorry lost part of the hand. Villain had KK and took the pot

A clear cbet on the flop. The Q high board hits your range well and you have a flush draw. I think the turn checkraise is pretty bad, especially the min-raise. You don't really represent any value hand, since with most you would second barrel to make him pay with his queens and flush draws. If he is a type of player who calls cbets decently wide, you probably should second barrel, to make him fold his 7x hands and 88-JJ, although I'm not sure he is folding JJ or TT. Checking is also an option I think, especially if he's passive, however in my experience the majority of players bet here like 90%+ when checked to. Check - calling seems ok if he gives you a decent price.

If he raises your cbet on the flop, I would give him a range of AQ,KQ, sets (QQ,33,77), nut flush draws (Ax of diamonds), sometimes AA and KK that he just called with preflop and wants to get value now and perhaps a few bluffs if he is aggresive, considering it is a decent board to bluff raise. Now with this range your equity is somehere between 35% and 40%, it depends on how often you think he is bluffing. This is ofcourse if you get to see both the turn and river. I'm not really sure about the best play here, but I guess calling is best, given that you can still get value from his top pairs and trips if you hit your flush. I think reraising here is bad since he will only get it in with better hands and I don't think there is a lot of bluffs in his range.

Well that's my 2 cents, hope it helps but I may be completely wrong

 

[Figaroo2]

I agree with Fisi's analysis which looks fine.
Regarding 4 bet bluffing in this spot. Personally I wouldn't and my primary reason would be that this is 1c2c (2nl) and mostly players are learning and don't know how to bluff correctly. His raise on the flop is highly likely to mean what it says on the tin, i.e I have a good hand. At 2nl without good reads work on the premise that most bets mean exactly what they represent.
This wouldn't just be him three betting an opening raise, this would be him re-raising your flop cbet which indicates even more strength.
As Vinyl righly pointed out recently in his string, at this level you make money by value betting with good made hands.
As we know he had KK so this just reinforces this point.

 

[Sneaky Feet]

A clear cbet on the flop. The Q high board hits your range well and you have a flush draw. I think the turn checkraise is pretty bad, especially the min-raise. You don't really represent any value hand, since with most you would second barrel to make him pay with his queens and flush draws. If he is a type of player who calls cbets decently wide, you probably should second barrel, to make him fold his 7x hands and 88-JJ, although I'm not sure he is folding JJ or TT. Checking is also an option I think, especially if he's passive, however in my experience the majority of players bet here like 90%+ when checked to. Check - calling seems ok if he gives you a decent price.

If he raises your cbet on the flop, I would give him a range of AQ,KQ, sets (QQ,33,77), nut flush draws (Ax of diamonds), sometimes AA and KK that he just called with preflop and wants to get value now and perhaps a few bluffs if he is aggresive, considering it is a decent board to bluff raise. Now with this range your equity is somehere between 35% and 40%, it depends on how often you think he is bluffing. This is ofcourse if you get to see both the turn and river. I'm not really sure about the best play here, but I guess calling is best, given that you can still get value from his top pairs and trips if you hit your flush. I think reraising here is bad since he will only get it in with better hands and I don't think there is a lot of bluffs in his range.

Well that's my 2 cents, hope it helps but I may be completely wrong

It looks like both you and Figaroo2 are in agreement that I should have acted directly post flop. Thanks for that and I'll definitely implement that action in this position. And yes after looking at the check raise it does look a little suspect based on receiving nothing on the turn. I can see where if I had check raised then double barrelled I may have had a fold with out the river. Or at least saved myself some coin in the end.

Thanks folks!