Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

[John A]

On interesting river spot where I was unsure what to do...flopped set but bad runout.
The limp wasn't deliberate I was timing out and had to scramble to hit a button.

Pacific, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 7 Players

SB: $5.05 (101 bb)
BB: $4.83 (96.6 bb)
Hero (MP1): $10.25 (205 bb)
MP2: $5 (100 bb)
MP3: $5.50 (110 bb)VPIP: 21, PFR: 15, 3B: 5, AF: 2.3, Hands: 6923
CO: $4.65 (93 bb)
BTN: $5.42 (108.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 6

6

Hero calls $0.05, MP2 folds, MP3 raises to $0.20, 4 folds, Hero calls $0.15

Flop: ($0.47) 8

5

6

(2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets $0.22, Hero raises to $0.77, MP3 calls $0.55

Turn: ($2.01) A

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.95, MP3 calls $0.95

River: ($3.91) 4

(2 players)
Hero??
When he calls the flop check raise I put him on an overpair/set/77 maybe some 99 but then he calls as well when the Ace hits? This means he should either have AA 88 55 or 77 nothing much else makes much sense, maybe some AXs that got sticky on the flop with two overs and a back door FD. We are behind most of his range on the river so, bet fold or check fold?

You're not really able to squeeze much value from worse here. He's not aggressive enough to c/c the river. I like betting $1.20 and folding to a shove at these stakes. Doubt he'll bluff, and if he shoves, it's only with better. 55 is probably calling.

 

[John A]

So Bruce & I had a small discussion about this hand. He's telling me that & should bet bigger flop & keep on betting all 3 streets & get the money in as possible while I like my small cbet. I feel like it clearly disguises our entire range & could easily let V induce some bluffs or overvalue his Ax hands & try to raise. Specially playing deepstacked I like it very much.
The turn was a bit of a fancy play but again repping a line where I would miss flop & give up on turn. I felt that way I could make the pot bigger for an easy shove on river which worked fine.
What do you think John? Polk advice using a small sizing on almost all the 3bet pot flop cbets while I've seen 100NL players using the same line even in 100BB effective with just an overpair. We basically have nothing to worry about on the flop And we do have to target V's entire range don't we?


PokerStars - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

CO (CO): 107 BB (VPIP: 27.73, PFR: 19.33, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 123)
BTN (BTN): 84.4 BB (VPIP: 21.43, PFR: 5.36, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 56)
Hero (SB): 141.4 BB
BB (BB): 115.6 BB (VPIP: 31.33, PFR: 21.69, 3Bet Preflop: 11.43, Hands: 84)
UTG (UTG): 167 BB (VPIP: 18.67, PFR: 14.67, 3Bet Preflop: 3.33, Hands: 77)
MP (MP): 221.4 BB (VPIP: 18.60, PFR: 12.79, 3Bet Preflop: 2.94, Hands: 87)

Hero posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Dealt to Hero:AcAh


UTG raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 11 BB, fold, UTG calls 8 BB

Flop (23 BB, 2 players):2dAdJh

Hero bets 8 BB, UTG calls 8 BB

Turn (39 BB, 2 players): 3c

Hero checks, UTG bets 18.8 BB, Hero raises to 49 BB, UTG calls 30.2 BB

River (137 BB, 2 players):Qh

Hero bets 73.4 BB and is all-in, UTG calls 73.4 BB

In general, I'm not a fan of most static logic. Is that an oxymoron already? Your question when you flop big should always be... what are my opponents likely second best hands, and then bet accordingly. On that flop, it's not much. So I don't mind a smaller c-bet, but it should still be larger than 8. Don't apply what Polk or other high stakes regs are doing to 5nl games. Most of that advice doesn't apply here. You just want to focus on maximizing value.

Not a fan of the turn CR. If he's calling a turn CR, then you should be able to just bet big on every street. Calling a turn CR means he's strong, which he couldn't be that much here. I'd just bet, bet, bet because of the flop texture. Then perhaps on the river, depending on his aggression, CR.

 

[John A]

Anyone have any hands they're interested in some video analysis on? Post some up, and I can remove your name of course, and do a video analysis.

 

[John A]

No takers?

 

[Figaroo2]

what river sizing do you like here?

Pacific, $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $55.82 (111.6 bb)
BB: $48.83 (97.7 bb)
UTG+1: $68.83 (137.7 bb)
UTG+2: $86.37 (172.7 bb)VPIP: 15, PFR: 11, 3B: 0, AF: 4.0, Hands: 123
MP1: $52.74 (105.5 bb)
MP2: $80.73 (161.5 bb)
MP3: $51.08 (102.2 bb)
CO: $87.40 (174.8 bb)
Hero (BTN): $50 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with 6

6

UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 raises to $1.50, 2 folds, MP3 calls $1.50, CO folds, Hero calls $1.50, SB folds, BB calls $1

Flop: ($6.25) 4

6

A

(4 players)
BB checks, UTG+2 bets $3.12, MP3 folds, Hero calls $3.12, BB folds

Turn: ($12.49) 2

(2 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero bets $6.24, UTG+2 calls $6.24

River: ($24.97) J

(2 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero? we have $39 behind

Spoiler

bets $12.48

Spoiler

, UTG+2 calls $12.48
Results: $49.93 pot ($2.49 rake)
Final Board: 4

6

A

2

J

UTG+2 showed A

K

and lost (-$23.34 net)
Hero showed 6

6

and won $47.44 ($24.10 net)

 

[Figaroo2]

What do you think of this hand v Aggro donk?

poker stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players

SB: $10 (100 bb)VPIP: 33, PFR: 25, 3B: 0, AF: 2.5, Hands: 24
BB: $11.33 (113.3 bb)
UTG: $10.64 (106.4 bb)
MP: $13.14 (131.4 bb)
Hero (CO): $10.63 (106.3 bb)
BTN: $10.15 (101.5 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 8

A

2 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, BTN folds, SB calls $0.25, BB folds

Flop: ($0.70) 5

2

4

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.45, SB raises to $1.20, Hero calls $0.75

Turn: ($3.10) 7

(2 players)
SB bets $1.90, Hero raises to $9.13 and is all-in,

nut flush draw, any 3 any 6 any Ace probs all good.​

 

[Alucard]

pokerstars - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com/

Hero (MP): 173.6 BB
CO: 109.4 BB (VPIP: 16.86, PFR: 11.76, 3Bet Preflop: 3.77, Hands: 263)
BTN: 153 BB (VPIP: 21.88, PFR: 15.63, 3Bet Preflop: 11.76, Hands: 32)
SB: 102.4 BB (VPIP: 17.79, PFR: 13.43, 3Bet Preflop: 7.25, Hands: 1,550)
BB: 30 BB (VPIP: 41.67, PFR: 25.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 12)
UTG: 179.6 BB (VPIP: 30.74, PFR: 22.59, 3Bet Preflop: 9.68, Hands: 278)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has Ah Ks
fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, BTN raises to 9 BB, fold, BB calls 8 BB, Hero raises to 34 BB, BTN calls 25 BB, fold

Flop : (77.4 BB, 2 players) 8c 4s 9c
Hero bets 20 BB, BTN raises to 77.2 BB,

4bet size seems too big but wanted to shut it down pre
didn't remember much about the V but he was very loose later
How should I proceed flop? Overbet shove? bet fold/check fold/ bet shove??

 

[John A]

Pacific, $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $55.82 (111.6 bb)
BB: $48.83 (97.7 bb)
UTG+1: $68.83 (137.7 bb)
UTG+2: $86.37 (172.7 bb)VPIP: 15, PFR: 11, 3B: 0, AF: 4.0, Hands: 123
MP1: $52.74 (105.5 bb)
MP2: $80.73 (161.5 bb)
MP3: $51.08 (102.2 bb)
CO: $87.40 (174.8 bb)
Hero (BTN): $50 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with 6

6

UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 raises to $1.50, 2 folds, MP3 calls $1.50, CO folds, Hero calls $1.50, SB folds, BB calls $1

Flop: ($6.25) 4

6

A

(4 players)
BB checks, UTG+2 bets $3.12, MP3 folds, Hero calls $3.12, BB folds

Turn: ($12.49) 2

(2 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero bets $6.24, UTG+2 calls $6.24

River: ($24.97) J

(2 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero? we have $39 behind

Spoiler

bets $12.48

Spoiler

, UTG+2 calls $12.48
Results: $49.93 pot ($2.49 rake)
Final Board: 4

6

A

2

J

UTG+2 showed A

K

and lost (-$23.34 net)
Hero showed 6

6

and won $47.44 ($24.10 net)

I like bigger on the turn here Fig. I don't think 1/2 vs 2/3rd is going to change the fold out rate correct? What hands in your mind will call 1/2 pot, but fold to a 2/3rd turn bet? I don't know what your normal sizing is here or how much history you have, but I'd always go larger there.

As played, $17 on the river. But this is another one of those IF the turn sizing was bigger, we get more on the river as well.

 

[John A]

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players

SB: $10 (100 bb)VPIP: 33, PFR: 25, 3B: 0, AF: 2.5, Hands: 24
BB: $11.33 (113.3 bb)
UTG: $10.64 (106.4 bb)
MP: $13.14 (131.4 bb)
Hero (CO): $10.63 (106.3 bb)
BTN: $10.15 (101.5 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 8

A

2 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, BTN folds, SB calls $0.25, BB folds

Flop: ($0.70) 5

2

4

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.45, SB raises to $1.20, Hero calls $0.75

Turn: ($3.10) 7

(2 players)
SB bets $1.90, Hero raises to $9.13 and is all-in,

nut flush draw, any 3 any 6 any Ace probs all good.​

Looks good, NH. At this level he's going to have more hands than he should have on a CR, and he's loose enough to have some bluffs and low top pair hands that should fold out.

 

[John A]

PokerStars - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com/

Hero (MP): 173.6 BB
CO: 109.4 BB (VPIP: 16.86, PFR: 11.76, 3Bet Preflop: 3.77, Hands: 263)
BTN: 153 BB (VPIP: 21.88, PFR: 15.63, 3Bet Preflop: 11.76, Hands: 32)
SB: 102.4 BB (VPIP: 17.79, PFR: 13.43, 3Bet Preflop: 7.25, Hands: 1,550)
BB: 30 BB (VPIP: 41.67, PFR: 25.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 12)
UTG: 179.6 BB (VPIP: 30.74, PFR: 22.59, 3Bet Preflop: 9.68, Hands: 278)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has Ah Ks
fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, BTN raises to 9 BB, fold, BB calls 8 BB, Hero raises to 34 BB, BTN calls 25 BB, fold

Flop : (77.4 BB, 2 players) 8c 4s 9c
Hero bets 20 BB, BTN raises to 77.2 BB,

4bet size seems too big but wanted to shut it down pre
didn't remember much about the V but he was very loose later
How should I proceed flop? Overbet shove? bet fold/check fold/ bet shove??

Yeah, 4-bet is a little large. You're deep though, so it's not horrible, but I'd still size down a little. As played, if he's calling pre after 3-betting, then you should be checking that flop a ton and have a check/calling range (depending on sizing), a check fold range, and a CR range. I don't really think you should ever have a over shove range simply because a CR as a semi-bluff will commit him with the same/worse range, and it's doubtful he'll fold 88+ to a shove on that flop (and obviously not 88/99 ).

 

[Figaroo2]

Yeah, 4-bet is a little large. You're deep though, so it's not horrible, but I'd still size down a little. As played, if he's calling pre after 3-betting, then you should be checking that flop a ton and have a check/calling range (depending on sizing), a check fold range, and a CR range. I don't really think you should ever have a over shove range simply because a CR as a semi-bluff will commit him with the same/worse range, and it's doubtful he'll fold 88+ to a shove on that flop (and obviously not 88/99 ).

John if it was 100bb effective and the 4bet was around 26bb would you shove on the flop?

 

[John A]

100BB w/ 26bb 4-bet, it's close, but with this particular flop I think it's still slightly -EV. I think you'd need your opponent to fold nearly 40% of their range to break even, and I'm not seeing that. It's probably closer to 1/3rd of their range is folding pre.

 

[Figaroo2]

Yeah the reason I ask is we have been talking about the AK oop 4bet pot scenario where villian flats the 4 bet in position and we whiff the flop.
I remember an old training video you did around this where you went through the math which suggested we should usually be shoving the flop.
I had a similar hand to this where I shoved a low board and the villian flashed JJ and folded. I have been only ever been called by AA and KK and sets in this spot when ive shoved.

 

[Alucard]

PokerStars - $0.10 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

BTN: 109.6 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 33.33, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 6)
SB: 103.2 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 3)
Hero (BB): 111.1 BB
UTG: 185.9 BB (VPIP: 21.43, PFR: 14.29, 3Bet Preflop: 11.11, Hands: 14)
MP: 193.2 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 33.33, 3Bet Preflop: 50.00, Hands: 3)
CO: 111.1 BB (VPIP: 30.00, PFR: 20.00, 3Bet Preflop: 20.00, Hands: 11)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Kc Kh
fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to 3 BB, fold, Hero raises to 10 BB, BTN calls 7 BB

Flop : (20.5 BB, 2 players) Qh 5c 6d
Hero bets 10 BB, BTN raises to 20 BB, Hero calls 10 BB

Turn : (60.5 BB, 2 players) 6s
Hero checks, BTN bets 28.9 BB, Hero raises to 81.1 BB and is all-in, fold

Hero wins 113 BB

I'm happy GIIng here cause there are literally not much he beats me. The question is would he go for a check back on river for a cheap showdown with Qx? Or if it's any scarecard that would kill the action

 

[freddy66]

lmao....

someone should coach computers.......because if i knew how to post threads and all this stuff i would be in for sure.....if you only knew how bad i wanted and needed poker coaching....im like a sponge....but i need computer coaching before i can take advantage of all this wonderful stuff on cc!i know....sad but true!

 

[John A]

Yeah the reason I ask is we have been talking about the AK oop 4bet pot scenario where villian flats the 4 bet in position and we whiff the flop.
I remember an old training video you did around this where you went through the math which suggested we should usually be shoving the flop.
I had a similar hand to this where I shoved a low board and the villian flashed JJ and folded. I have been only ever been called by AA and KK and sets in this spot when ive shoved.

Yes, correct. It's pretty close to neutral no matter what (100bb effective). So it's just player dependent. Obviously, the more of their range that they will fold, the better off you are shoving. In your hypothetical, if your opponent folds TT/JJ, then you should always be shoving that flop. Now a days, people are calling lighter, and understand ranges a bit better, so it's much more closer to neutral than it has been in the past. Players are just better in general, but still not great at those stakes. But good enough to be calling more than they would have in the past.

 

[John A]

PokerStars - $0.10 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

BTN: 109.6 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 33.33, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 6)
SB: 103.2 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 3)
Hero (BB): 111.1 BB
UTG: 185.9 BB (VPIP: 21.43, PFR: 14.29, 3Bet Preflop: 11.11, Hands: 14)
MP: 193.2 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 33.33, 3Bet Preflop: 50.00, Hands: 3)
CO: 111.1 BB (VPIP: 30.00, PFR: 20.00, 3Bet Preflop: 20.00, Hands: 11)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Kc Kh
fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to 3 BB, fold, Hero raises to 10 BB, BTN calls 7 BB

Flop : (20.5 BB, 2 players) Qh 5c 6d
Hero bets 10 BB, BTN raises to 20 BB, Hero calls 10 BB

Turn : (60.5 BB, 2 players) 6s
Hero checks, BTN bets 28.9 BB, Hero raises to 81.1 BB and is all-in, fold

Hero wins 113 BB

I'm happy GIIng here cause there are literally not much he beats me. The question is would he go for a check back on river for a cheap showdown with Qx? Or if it's any scarecard that would kill the action

1) You don't need to balance your range in a spot vs. someone you have no info on yet. Not at this level imho. If you're betting 1/2 pot bet so you can have the proper bluff / value ratios, I would suggest you don't. Just bet 2/3rds+ for value when you have TP+.

2) The turn CRAI is fine. He's essentially committed w/ that bet any ways. I'm not sure what in the world he could bet/fold there... and this leads me back to point #1, your opponents aren't good enough to not adjust your GTO strategy.

 

[Alucard]

Just wanna let you guys know that I've moved up to 10NL & things are going great so far. Only 8k hands though. And running over EV.
A huge thanks to everyone!

And the positional stats
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1SHgPWSW1HacRN5KuhUjscJbsx0tPccMk

I'm losing 50BB/100 from the BB still. Have been trying to get it under. Around 40ish hopefully

 

[willko01000]

Nice

Wow this looks like a great opportunity for aspiring players.

I'll definitely be checking out the book and subsequent details.

Thanks for the effort here and sharing your story with us all!

 

[John A]

Just wanna let you guys know that I've moved up to 10NL & things are going great so far. Only 8k hands though. And running over EV.
A huge thanks to everyone!

And the positional stats
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1SHgPWSW1HacRN5KuhUjscJbsx0tPccMk

I'm losing 50BB/100 from the BB still. Have been trying to get it under. Around 40ish hopefully

Congrats! You've been putting in good work. I think your goal should even be -30 or under.

About the BB, I'd just cut out some of the bottom of your range. You can't just measure calling out of the BB in no-limit based on pot odds. If that was the case, there's almost no hand you should be folding to a 1.5x raise pre. You have to account for flopability and positional disadvantage. There's a lot of bad advice about this floating around again, especially by several top players. As a rule of thumb (and someone did some calcs on this sometime back on 2+2), you should add -10% positional equity disadvantage when you're playing OOP. And on hands that don't flop big draws well, it's better to fold a lot of their offsuit counter parts, especially against lesser know opponents. K5o for example is a hand that equity wise you should be calling to almost any raise from a steal position. However, you won't run much when you flop a K, and you have no flush or straight potential. I don't think many players are playing this for less than -100bb/100 long term.

 

[John A]

Is it cool Fig or Alucrad if I use some of your last hands posted here for a video analysis?

 

[Alucard]

yeah no prob

 

[Alucard]

PokerStars - $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

SB: 142 BB (VPIP: 60.00, PFR: 30.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 10)
BB: 100 BB (VPIP: 11.11, PFR: 3.70, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 28)
UTG: 102.7 BB (VPIP: 26.36, PFR: 16.32, 3Bet Preflop: 4.08, Hands: 246)
MP: 106.4 BB (VPIP: 36.59, PFR: 12.20, 3Bet Preflop: 6.06, Hands: 84)
Hero (CO): 100 BB
BTN: 116.2 BB (VPIP: 24.83, PFR: 16.21, 3Bet Preflop: 2.73, Hands: 301)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Kd Ad
fold, fold, Hero raises to 2.5 BB, fold, SB calls 2 BB, BB raises to 11 BB, Hero calls 8.5 BB, fold

Flop : (24.5 BB, 2 players) Kc 3d 3c
BB bets 8 BB, Hero calls 8 BB

Turn : (40.5 BB, 2 players) 4d
BB bets 23 BB, Hero calls 23 BB

River : (86.5 BB, 2 players) 6h
BB bets 58 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 58 BB and is all-in

Standard? Someone told me that we shouldn't be calling to chop. If that's the case should we find a fold at somepoint?
we cannot fold turn with a backdoor. And on river cannot fold considering the price? Even vs this type of opponent? (Assuming tight/nitty)

 

[WabiSabi]

The plan was I bet to induce here but then then I couldn't find a reraise. I don't know why. I suspected he would probably bet the river as well and could gii on the end.

I wouldn't 3bet the turn once you induce anyway as i think when you do villain can get away from all worse value hands and bluffs.I think turn is a call then either check call or check raise the river vs villains bet if you take this turn line. So imo you played the turn ok but i would of shoved the river for value vs this sizing.

 

[WabiSabi]

Standard? Someone told me that we shouldn't be calling to chop. If that's the case should we find a fold at somepoint?
we cannot fold turn with a backdoor. And on river cannot fold considering the price? Even vs this type of opponent? (Assuming tight/nitty)

28 hands isn't enough to make to many assumptions so for me this is an easy 4bet pre and call if they shove.But as played you need to be calling down on that runout. Villain can have worse value hands and bluffs as'well as us splitting the pot quite a bit. Your blocking the value hands that have you beat and apart from something like A3s no bluffs really got there. Its not a run out we can consider folding tptk imo.Also you should absolutely be calling to split the pot if the pot is offering you the correct odds to do so.But this isn't a spot you need to worry about that.