Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

[Fisi]

Yes, good questions. with your 98s example, it's villain dependent like always. The reason you'd consider raising in any of these spots is when you have aggressive opponents who are double and tripping a lot. I think at your stakes, this isn't going to be the case quite as often. I'm talking about an overall strategy where you are staying very aggressive in position against regulars. It's a better strategy than trying to accumulate 20k+ hands so that you can get an idea of their true aggression frequencies. Good aggressive regs will be able to get you to fold your medium strength hands often enough when they have initiative. So you can call down versus their range, or you can apply pressure back. But what line you take you need to be clear on from the beginning.

If you are calling with 98s, then you should know what kind of opponent you're playing at and that you're going to be raising a lot of boards when you whiff, draws, possibly middle pairs. If your opponent isn't aggressive though, and you do hit middle pair, then calling is fine.

OOP you should be limiting what kind of mediocre hands you're playing. When you do have one, yes, c/c lead is a great line against a lot of opponents.

I think at your stakes, calling with middle pairs in position, and probably c/cing and leading half pot OTT when you have a medium strength hand is more ideal. Your opponents won't understand range enough and they'll tend to only raise when they have big hands or have big draws.

Ok, great, thanks! So to summarize, calling is best vs. regs that are not too aggressive, raising is best against regs that are really aggressive (AF%> 43 or so), and then calling down becomes preferable to raising again when you're up against a maniac. Right?

 

[John A]

lol... damn work. Getting in the way of your real work.

Hey, that's looking good. Congrats. Not a huge sample like you said, but keep focusing on these things and we're going to continue to build on them. This formula I'm laying out is going to work, it's going to reduce variance, and it's going to make the game easier and more fun. Wow, that's a lot, but it will happen.

#2 - Limit your cold calling out of position with trouble hands and speculative hands.
Point #3. Being Lost on the Turn.
Point #4 - Don't play without initiative.

Haven't been able to get any game time at all this week but last week really tried hard to concentrate on points 2-4. Also decided on the flop my plan for the hand and as a result folded less later in the hand. It got me into a few losing spots but by the end of the week I started to iron these out better and made some better river bluffs..look what happened to my redline!
I know its only a small sample but its all I could find the time for last week and i finished the week nicely. Hate it when i'm at work 0700 to 2200 every day its really interfering with my poker .:musicus:

 

[John A]

Ok, great, thanks! So to summarize, calling is best vs. regs that are not too aggressive, raising is best against regs that are really aggressive (AF%> 43 or so), and then calling down becomes preferable to raising again when you're up against a maniac. Right?

Bingo.... by golly he's got it! Raising against the aggressive regs might seem a little counter intuitive at first, but it will put you in easier spots and apply pressure against them so they are not so eager to raise pots in front of you. Also, you'll get some of them making mistakes by folding TT/JJ on Q86 boards when you raise with 89 (either they fold on the flop or turn). But like I said earlier, you should limit (pretty much eliminate the 89 kind of situations). If they do happen for whatever reason, then you'll know how to play them better.

 

[Fisi]

Bingo.... by golly he's got it! Raising against the aggressive regs might seem a little counter intuitive at first, but it will put you in easier spots and apply pressure against them so they are not so eager to raise pots in front of you. Also, you'll get some of them making mistakes by folding TT/JJ on Q86 boards when you raise with 89 (either they fold on the flop or turn). But like I said earlier, you should limit (pretty much eliminate the 89 kind of situations). If they do happen for whatever reason, then you'll know how to play them better.

Haha, thanks! On to #5 then!

 

[John A]

If you have questions with #5 let me know. Good work so far though.

 

[Fisi]

Yeah. So if we have two overcards or one overcard and some backdoors, we have enough direct equity and fold equity against an opponent's wide stealing range, that check folding would generally be incorrect. So if the reg isn't too aggressive, we donk, if he is on the more aggresive side, we use the stop and go line, both on dry boards.

Do we balance this line by doing the same with TP hands, two pair and big draws? What if we hit some middle pair on a dry board, is this still the most profitable line?

On wet boards this becomes less efective due to us having lower fold equity right? Do we donk for value on wet boards with TP+ going for several streets of value and just x/f hands with overcards?

 

[John A]

You gots it mans...

Don't worry about balancing until you have a lot of hands on your opponents and you think they are capable of really understanding ranges.

Think about how often you're putting this together against an opponents line, and the poker friends you talk to. Most of your opponents just don't get this, so don't worry about balance until it's necessary. Focus on maximum exploitative play... especially against the fishies.

I should do a video just on some recent sessions against fish/weak players at 100nl where I'm so ridiculously unbalanced and I'm not being exploited one bit. It's redonkulous.

 

[Fisi]

You gots it mans...

Don't worry about balancing until you have a lot of hands on your opponents and you think they are capable of really understanding ranges.

Think about how often you're putting this together against an opponents line, and the poker friends you talk to. Most of your opponents just don't get this, so don't worry about balance until it's necessary. Focus on maximum exploitative play... especially against the fishies.

I should do a video just on some recent sessions against fish/weak players at 100nl where I'm so ridiculously unbalanced and I'm not being exploited one bit. It's redonkulous.

OK, thanks . I will do my best to play really straightforwardly against my opponents, but I still find myself second guessing often against the more aggresive regs that play back.

 

[John A]

And obviously, if you have really good reason to think a more aggressive regular is playing back, then balance yourself more. Otherwise though, play as exploitative as possible.

 

[Sneaky Feet]

I started using the stop and go technique and have found pretty decent success. When I first started using it I think I over used it at one table so the villains were on to me! Now I switch it up with a c/raise or a bet/raise (villain bets I raise. What's that called) and it seems to keep villains guessing a bit more.

Thanks John!

 

[John A]

Cool.... good work!

I had a student a couple of years ago tell me it was like found gold. Why more people don't do it, is almost a study on people following "common accepted wisdom". I've been doing it my whole poker career with a lot of success. But yes, you don't want to over do it, and against better opponents you want to make sure you're doing it with good hands also (which I do a lot when I'm OOP). C/C flop with 2 pair+ and then lead the turn.

 

[Figaroo2]

Dealing with AK

John
One of the hands im still struggling with is big slick. Recently I seem to have lost a lot with it, do you have any general guidlines for betsizing the hand in raised pots?
I will post some hands later. Generally I always 3 and 4 bet the hand, my problems start when I get called and miss the flop or get 5 bet shoved by a decent tight reg. When i get the hand all in pre I keep getting stacked.

 

[John A]

Post a hand or 2. In general though, 3 and 4-betting with AK is almost never bad. There are spots where it will make better since to call, and some spots against tight opponents to consider folding. But it's fairly rare.

I don't have any overall general advice beyond just make sure you are sizing re-raises to make an SPR that makes for easy flop or turn shoves. This is especially try against short stackers. I'm always trying to size myself against really short stacks to make sure I have a pot sized bet left on the flop, which I'm shoving on pretty much any flop.

 

[rhombus]

Post a hand or 2. In general though, 3 and 4-betting with AK is almost never bad. There are spots where it will make better since to call, and some spots against tight opponents to consider folding. But it's fairly rare.

I don't have any overall general advice beyond just make sure you are sizing re-raises to make an SPR that makes for easy flop or turn shoves. This is especially try against short stackers. I'm always trying to size myself against really short stacks to make sure I have a pot sized bet left on the flop, which I'm shoving on pretty much any flop.

Couple of Points on the AK when you say you are shoving is this when you are reraising in positon Preflop and they check to you.
Also what SPR will you go up to if its 2 on the flop are you still shoving and what if they shove into you is it an automatic call if up to 2 SPR

 

[rhombus]

another Question on Aggression % - whats the main difference between Aggression % and just aggression Factor
I have HEM2 and have Postflop Aggression Factor
(not an expert on what it means just know if over 2 they are aggressive post flop and if under 1 they are passive especially if VPIP and PFR are low
Is one alot better than the other and is one more suited to cash and one to tournaments etc

 

[FanatsLV]

thanks men ijust download the book and gona start to read i need some new info about game if i want go to your level

 

[fishinthesea]

I'm following this! Finished chapter 6 already! Very interesting read. Thank you for doing this.

 

[Figaroo2]

John
One of the hands im still struggling with is big slick. Recently I seem to have lost a lot with it, do you have any general guidlines for betsizing the hand in raised pots?

Actually having done a review I'm just running bad with this hand in the last month or so. Three times I've had AK and run into AA or KK. There are several other spots were I lost dominating hands.
These two hands are funny.

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players
MP3: $17.64 (70.6 bb) 33/9/16 11.5% 3bet
Hero (UTG+1): $26.37 (105.5 bb)
Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Ad Ks

Hero raises to $0.75, 3 folds, MP3 raises to $1.25, 4 folds, Hero raises to $4.10, MP3 raises to $17.64 and is all-in, Hero calls $13.54 (No way i'm not calling this off to those stats)

Flop: ($35.63) Th Jd 6h (2 players, 1 is all-in)
Turn: ($35.63) 9d (2 players, 1 is all-in)
River: ($35.63) 6c (2 players, 1 is all-in)

Results: $35.63 pot ($1.60 rake)
Final Board: Th Jd 6h 9d 6c
MP3 showed Qs Kh and won $34.03 ($16.39 net) muppet hit a straight
Hero showed Ad Ks and lost (-$17.64 net)

IPoker, $0.02/$0.04 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 4 Players
CO: $4.81 (120.2 bb) 89/28/25 7.7 3bet this fish was steaming
Hero (SB): $5.44 (136 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with As Kh
CO raises to $4.81 and is all-in, BTN folds, Hero calls $4.79, BB folds

Flop: ($9.66) 3c 7c 7s (2 players, 1 is all-in)
Turn: ($9.66) Kc (2 players, 1 is all-in)
River: ($9.66) Qh (2 players, 1 is all-in)

Results: $9.66 pot ($0.64 rake)
Final Board: 3c 7c 7s Kc Qh
CO showed Kd 7h and won $9.02 ($4.21 net)
Hero mucked As Kh and lost (-$4.81 net)

 

[Figaroo2]

making up for the above

The money went all in PREFLOP here.

 

[Figaroo2]

One of the scenarios I dont like is calling a three bet in position with AK knowing Im going to miss the flop 2 times out of 3 and face ahefty c bet with only 6 outs. Im usually giving up against tight regs at that point. Is it sometimes worth shoving as a bluff at this point b4 pot commitment issues start appearing.? Especially when we have backdoor and overcard combos.

 

[John A]

Couple of Points on the AK when you say you are shoving is this when you are reraising in positon Preflop and they check to you.
Also what SPR will you go up to if its 2 on the flop are you still shoving and what if they shove into you is it an automatic call if up to 2 SPR

Sorry about the delayed response. I've had some crazy stuff going on in my neck of the woods. You can check out my blog for details.

Usually against short stacks I try and size my 3-bet in those spots so that the SPR is 1.5 or less. It's usually pretty easy to do, and then I'm shoving pretty much any flop.

 

[John A]

another Question on Aggression % - whats the main difference between Aggression % and just aggression Factor
I have HEM2 and have Postflop Aggression Factor
(not an expert on what it means just know if over 2 they are aggressive post flop and if under 1 they are passive especially if VPIP and PFR are low
Is one alot better than the other and is one more suited to cash and one to tournaments etc

Well...
Aggression Factor = (Bets + Raises) / Calls
Agg% = ( (Bets + Raises) / (Bets + Raises + Calls + Checks ) * 100%

So checking doesn't effect AF, which is pretty important imho. Agg% is a more accurate overall indicator of aggression. Agg% normalizes slightly quicker also.

 

[rhombus]

Well...
Aggression Factor = (Bets + Raises) / Calls
Agg% = ( (Bets + Raises) / (Bets + Raises + Calls + Checks ) * 100%

So checking doesn't effect AF, which is pretty important imho. Agg% is a more accurate overall indicator of aggression. Agg% normalizes slightly quicker also.

Thanks Ive always used the A Factor as I always saw the 3 main ones were VPIP/PFR/AF. I'll give the Agg % a try

 

[rhombus]

Sorry about the delayed response. I've had some crazy stuff going on in my neck of the woods. You can check out my blog for details.

Usually against short stacks I try and size my 3-bet in those spots so that the SPR is 1.5 or less. It's usually pretty easy to do, and then I'm shoving pretty much any flop.

So in effect you 3bet 1/4 their stack to get 1.5 SPR
50BBs you 3Bet 12.5
40BBs you 3Bet 10
30BBs you 3Bet 7.5
not taking into account any limpers or blinds the above will always give you 1.5 SPR is the the correct/easiest way to do it.

 

[Sneaky Feet]

Just bought HEM2 in Sunday. Pretty cool stuff! Quick question, what's a whale? Just a really big fish I'm assuming. It's not me btw. I shift between rock and loose aggressive. That really surprised me actually I thought I would have been considered a lot tighter. I think it's already paid for itself by opening my eyes to my own play.