Is poker "gambling"?

[BelgoSuisse]

OP says he is a Christian, then he should know the Christian Churches stance on gambling.

If he is unsure then he should consult a priest not an on-line poker forum.

Nonsense. Priests are the last persons you should consult about religion. Their job is to make you believe their bronze age myth and their salary directly depends on enough people following their particular creed to finance their church. Why on earth would you want to rely on them for advice?

Do you really believe a car salesman is the best person to ask for comparative car advice?

 

[RamdeeBen]

Only when you define gambling in a way that allows both chance and skill/intent to affect the results. And as soon as you do that any monetary transaction becomes gambling since results are always at some level uncertain. And that voids the word gambling of its meaning.

It still is a gamble though, regardless of ones skill level, novice, medicore,advanced.

I don't even understand what you're trying to get at. Obviously we have mixed views but I really can't see how anyone can ever say poker isn't gambling when that is exactly the nature of the game, making money thus gambling to make money regardless of how you trap or outplay someone.

As soon as you pick up your hole cards, you have a percentage chance of winning the hand, so we either put money in the pot or don't. As soon as you do you have gambled on your hand winning you money. You don't put money in the pot with the intention of folding do you, as that would be stupid.. You put money in the pot to gamble and hope your hand wins.

odds/wager=gamble?

 

[Stu_Ungar]

Nonsense. Priests are the last persons you should consult about religion. Their job is to make you believe their bronze age myth and their salary directly depends on enough people following their particular creed to finance their church. Why on earth would you want to rely on them for advice?

Do you really believe a car salesman is the best person to ask for comparative car advice?

Well as OP is a Christian, he has already bought the car, now he just needs some advise as to its upkeep as such that advice should come from someone who has experience of cars.

 

[RamdeeBen]

Who cares?

OP says he is a Christian, then he should know the Christian Churches stance on gambling.

If he is unsure then he should consult a priest not an on-line poker forum.

He should of consulted them I agree. The thing is, a book filled with stuff which aren't fact based really shouldn't give a view on whether or not poker is a gamble or not. If they said it wasn't gambling then well...it just shows you what this bible is about, complete tosh.

 

[RamdeeBen]

Anyway....complete waste of time really. Kind of just winds me up I don't know why I got involved. If anyone wants to believe it's not a gamble then so be it lol and I thought I lacked some I knowledge in the gambling department.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

He should of consulted them I agree. The thing is, a book filled with stuff which aren't fact based really shouldn't give a view on whether or not poker is a gamble or not. If they said it wasn't gambling then well...it just shows you what this bible is about, complete tosh.

All the more reason to consult an expert.

 

[BelgoSuisse]

I don't even understand what you're trying to get at. Obviously we have mixed views but I really can't see how anyone can ever say poker isn't gambling when that is exactly the nature of the game

Probably because I love poker but I hate gambling ?

You know, when you go down to the bakery and buy a piece of bread, there is a non zero chance that the bread you just bought will turn into thin air through random quantum fluctuation. It's incredibly tiny, but it's non zero. Even without going to this extreme, anytime you buy something, there is a really good chance that its value will fluctuate over time. It's exactly the same when you buy the right to see another street or the right to see a showdown at a poker table.

You can't define gambling in Manichean terms, because then either everything is gambling or nothing is gambling. Gambling can only be define as a continuum that would start from 0-gamble, the physically impossible state where the result of your action would be entirely predictable, to 1-gamble, the state where the result of your action is absolutely random. As soon as you do that, poker gets to be pretty low on the gamble scale provided you play a non trivial volume.

 

[BelgoSuisse]

Well as OP is a Christian, he has already bought the car, now he just needs some advise as to its upkeep as such that advice should come from someone who has experience of cars.

Meh, I think there's something immoral in seeing someone who just got crooked by his car dealer, yet advising him to go back to the same crook to buy extra options and a maintenance contract.

 

[c9h13no3]

Belgo, you're making some good points, but I'd advise you to go easy on the believers.

A) This isn't a does God exhist thread.
B) I don't think you could win that thread.

 

[RamdeeBen]

Probably because I love poker but I hate gambling ?

You know, when you go down to the bakery and buy a piece of bread, there is a non zero chance that the bread you just bought will turn into thin air through random quantum fluctuation. It's incredibly tiny, but it's non zero. Even without going to this extreme, anytime you buy something, there is a really good chance that its value will fluctuate over time. It's exactly the same when you buy the right to see another street or the right to see a showdown at a poker table.

You can't define gambling in Manichean terms, because then either everything is gambling or nothing is gambling. Gambling can only be define as a continuum that would start from 0-gamble, the physically impossible state where the result of your action would be entirely predictable, to 1-gamble, the state where the result of your action is absolutely random. As soon as you do that, poker gets to be pretty low on the gamble scale provided you play a non trivial volume.

Christ man lol. How can you compare buying a loaf of bread to playing poker? Your right though, there is a very tiny chance of it turning into thin air. However, you aren't wagering money on that, that would just be unfortunate if it happened.

I'm not disputing that there is skill invoved in poker and probarly more skill than luck as there are many winning players who can turn a profit. This doesn't mean they aren't gambling though.


"Gambling is the wagering of money or something of material value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods. Typically, the outcome of the wager is evident within a short period."

Now that is the definition of gambling. Now where in there doesn't poker apply to that nature?

Just because you like poker but don't like to think of gambling as in poker doesn't mean it isn't. You're far of from that and you're just kidding yourself if you truly believe this buddy.

Also, when someone hits their one outer on the river to bust your stack when you put them all-in on the turn and they didn't have the odds to call, yet they call it and hit. Now, it was 44/1 or whatever to hit his card, this sucks but we have all had it happen before. This mother of all people who put his money in on one card coming out on the river took a big gamble but hit it. Now, when this happens, everyone will say "donk" "omg, how lucky" Whilst these are true, he GAMBLED on that happening and luckily got paid off. Now, correct me if I'm wrong but where wasn't the gamble on the turn? This is EXACTLY the same with every betting stage in a poker game. From pre flop to the river...I can't see how you can say it's not gamble!

 

[BelgoSuisse]

Belgo, you're making some good points, but I'd advise you to go easy on the believers.

A) This isn't a does God exhist thread.
B) I don't think you could win that thread.

I try to go easy on the believers. I see no point in going easy on their beliefs.

A) No, but this is a "religion is evil" thread as OP is obviously the victim of his church's prejudice against our lovely game.
B) I don't think anyone could win that thread for either side, but I for sure would have fun trying.

 

[cAPSLOCK]

Who cares?

OP says he is a Christian, then he should know the Christian Churches stance on gambling.

If he is unsure then he should consult a priest not an on-line poker forum.

Hehe.. My fav so far.

/thread (though I'd hate to see the the FSM etc... derail end)

 

[cAPSLOCK]

Belgo, you're making some good points, but I'd advise you to go easy on the believers.

A) This isn't a does God exhist thread.
B) I don't think you could win that thread.

Aww, don't spoil it right when it's getting good.

Some threads are better when they are derailed.

 

[cAPSLOCK]

B) I don't think anyone could win that thread for either side, but I for sure would have fun trying.

We may disagree on the existence of God.

But we agree fully on the existence of "Point B".

 

[jazzaxe]

Poker is controlled gambling. The skill of the players determines the edge. Anytime you hold two cards in a seven card game the outcome is not determinable. (Holdem). You can play in such a way where you have a probability of beating the other players in the long run, but it is always a gamble.

 

[ovi1kanobi]

It's gambling, but it's a calculated risk. You weigh risk vs reward and if you reward outweighs the risk like it does for a good player than you take the risk for the reward and come out ahead. There's still always that chance that you could get rivered for a year straight making it gambling

 

[darkassassin89]

Hmm, ok then Could playing Black jack be considered gambling? Lets say we have 3 guys
1. New to Black jack
2. Knows Basic Strategy
3. IS a Card counter

Now these are our 3 guys. In Black jack the house has a slight Edge on the players that know basic strategy and a huge one on the new player, however the edge is reveresed with the card counter bc he is able to track the cards and knows when to bet more to gain more.

So are all of these individuals still gambling?

(Not trying to steer away from poker, but just curious about this question)

And I love GOD
Religion on the other hand has not realy helped me in my life. Sooooo I just have faith that God is my Higher power and will provide for me when i need something or he feels the need to provide for me.

 

[fletchdad]

ooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh nnnnnnnoooooooooooooooooooo

its really gonna take off now........................

 

[Double-A]

ooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh nnnnnnnoooooooooooooooooooo

its really gonna take off now........................

lol

I read the first few posts and then skipped to the end to see where the conversation had gone...

wow

 

[Liveone1]

I'm gonna go ahead and say that poker is 100% gambling. It is a game of chance first, but can be manipulated by skill second.

Like when you are dealt your hole cards you have absolutely no idea weather or not you will be holding AA that hand or 72o, but once you have this information you can then use your skill agaisnt other players to minimize the gambling that takes place OR take better gambles depending on your perception. This is what makes poker profitable.

For the record, they gambled in the garden of Eden!

 

[doops]

OP, you are not going to get an argument here that will overcome the objections of a Christian who is against gambling.

For the most part, the conservative religious objections to gambling have nothing to do with gambling itself. It's about wasting money in a frivolous pursuit. It's about taking advantage of other people. It's about doing something that is not supplying a service or some sort of goods. It's about risking money, time, care on something that is not, to them, worth the time, money or care. The belief is that your life efforts should be focussed on pursuits with intrinsic value -- working at your job, supporting your family, caring for others, giving to your church and to charities.

So it won't matter to a conservative Christian (or follower of many other religions) that poker also incorporates skill into a game that has luck as a part. That's not the real problem they have with it.

I enjoy poker. But trying to convince someone who thinks it's a waste of my time and money means getting down to a discussion about what life should be like and what life should be for and, as such, there is no winner to that discussion. Or, rather, the other side will always think thay "won" the debate.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

I enjoy poker. But trying to convince someone who thinks it's a waste of my time and money means getting down to a discussion about what life should be like and what life should be for and, as such, there is no winner to that discussion. Or, rather, the other side will always think thay "won" the debate.

You arent really trying to convince anybody.

If you are a Christian then all you are really trying to do is to find out if it offends your god.

If he dosent like it and you do it; you rot in hell.

Thats the whole point of religious doctrine, it dosent matter how many people agree or disagree on something, the final ruling comes after death.

If you choose to be a Christian then you have to follow all of the rules, you cant just pick and choose the ones that suit you. That is something that dosent sit well with modern society.

 

[Poof]

If he dosent like it and you do it; you rot in hell.

Thats the whole point of religious doctrine, it dosent matter how many people agree or disagree on something, the final ruling comes after death.

If you choose to be a Christian then you have to follow all of the rules, you cant just pick and choose the ones that suit you. That is something that dosent sit well with modern society.

No, I think there is one where you can go to confession, and say 5000 Hail Mary's and you have been excorsized, or something like that.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

No, I think there is one where you can go to confession, and say 5000 Hail Mary's and you have been excorsized, or something like that.

Death bed baptism is your best bet.

After confession you have to stop doing whatever it is you confessed to, hence normally you would confess to the same priest who would pick up on the fact that you cant truly have repented if you continue to commit the same sin.

 

[dj11]

I have chosen to cherry pick my religious beliefs. For instance, until someone can prove that some god exists, I maintain my skepticism. However, I occasionally celebrate the Jewish traditional holidays, and most of the Christian holidays but add in the pagan equinoxes, and the seasons. A good wind is a religious experience, as was good sex.....once....

Native peoples use of the indigenous herbs also figures in. As did many of the modern industrial versions of those indigenous herbs.

My custom made religious system serves me very well, and should be backed up by law! Oh, Wait!, It has been codified already! Something about Freedom of Religion, which also should be interpreted as Freedom FROM Religion.

I do believe that investing all my resources and efforts into one particular faith, or organized religion, would have been the biggest gamble of all. What if I was wrong? Well, nothing would change if I was right or wrong, I simply wouldn't be around to worry about it.....

So I worshiped at the temple of fun.