Prefer AA or KK allin vs 88? :)

[ChronicFish]

i cant even begin to tell you how many times ive been rocked by 88 vs AA on bovada, but AA wins overall. all i know its best not putting 100% of your stack in so you have some chips to fall back on.

 

[loafes]

i cant even begin to tell you how many times ive been rocked by 88 vs AA on bovada, but AA wins overall. all i know its best not putting 100% of your stack in so you have some chips to fall back on.

Not putting 100% of your stack in is going to be a mistake here. If I have AA vs 88 I'm willing to go broke by putting all my chips in the middle so as to attain Max value

 

[MadMaddie]

You are right on target; AA and KK are highly overrated. Like any pair, it's only one pair. It needs improvement, like they all do before going to town. That is why I would rather be holding a SSC facing those pairs. Far greater options.

One big mistake I often see is shoving with KK early in an MTT. That is when the weakest players are abundant and likely to call with ANY ace at all. Then they get a lucky flop, turn, or river, and it's over for KK. Early, it's better to see a flop with KK before going nuke, IMO.

But if we have KK and the other player will call the allins before the flop with any Ace we are a big favourite to win the hand so I think it is good to be wanting to go allin in a spot like this against this kind of loose crazy calling player.

 

[Propane Goat]

i cant even begin to tell you how many times ive been rocked by 88 vs AA on bovada, but AA wins overall. all i know its best not putting 100% of your stack in so you have some chips to fall back on.

If you have AA, and somebody shoves ahead of you and has you covered, would you fold because losing would knock you out? I'm sick of being sucked out on by ridiculous hands too, but in any regular tournament or cash game if I have AA or KK and somebody wants to race then I'm willing to join in 100% of the time. The key is to get your chips in the middle when you are ahead and keep them in your stack when you are behind, this is so freaking hard to get right over the long haul but if you can then you're a winning player.

Particularly in MTT's, you have to be willing to risk busting out in order to get a bunch of chips together for when blinds and antes get steep. I would rather bust out in the first 15 minutes shoving AA/KK than be struggling along for 3+ hours only to be forced to shove something like K4s because I'm down to 5BB, then bust out right before the money and waste all that time.

 

[ChronicFish]

Im sry yes i do mean shove 100% of your stack on AA pre, i allways do myself, but it also has to do with the situation and how early it is in the tournament, well at least for me it is because even shoving AA pre i have lost alot to 88.

 

[Tom1559]

I think it was Phil Gordon who once claimed that in an all in with 3 or 4 people he would rather have a low pair rather than A's or K's. His thinking obviously being that the guys who were all in had fewer outs than him. Not sure I agree with him but it is a thought.

 

[DaMan1313]

Give me AA all day everyday agains any hand all in preflop if i loose i don;t even tilt anymore, I'll do it all over again.

 

[onemorechance]

****ing thread just gave me a brain hemorrhage

 

[Four Dogs]

Interesting. I would have said they're exactly the same but KK does have more straight possibilities. Of course it will only matter when the 8's make a set or a straight to the Queen. I guess KK is better.

 

[MeStealUChips]

The odds will always change depending on what pocket pair each player is holding. It this case the KK would be a better chance to win as it would take away the low-side straight draw but overall these are essentially the same hands. To me if I had to choose any pocket pair higher than my opponents are always good but I would want the pair right above. So lets say they have 66 then best case I have 77 if nobody else is in the hand. This takes away a multitude of straight draws.

 

[DunningKruger]

If you're all in pre with a single player, they show 88, and you can pick your hand, then you take 99 to block some straights. If they have 44 you take 55, then 66, then AA in that order. Against 22 or 33 you take AA. Odds calculators are fun.

If they are the one with AA and you had to pick a smaller pair for yourself, you'd take 66, then 88, then 77, then TT in that order. KK incidentally is one of the worst pairs to have against AA. Only 22 fares worse.

Anyone want to hazard a guess as to which two hands you'd select if you could pick the hand for both yourself and your opponent?

 

[FastOne]

I've always assumed that, for example, 99 is better than AA when played vs 88. Same with 66 vs 55, and so on, because it limits the posibilities of hitting a straight for the lower pair.

 

[FastOne]

If you're all in pre with a single player, they show 88, and you can pick your hand, then you take 99 to block some straights. If they have 44 you take 55, then 66, then AA in that order. Against 22 or 33 you take AA. Odds calculators are fun.

If they are the one with AA and you had to pick a smaller pair for yourself, you'd take 66, then 88, then 77, then TT in that order. KK incidentally is one of the worst pairs to have against AA. Only 22 fares worse.

Missed your post before posting mine.

Anyone want to hazard a guess as to which two hands you'd select if you could pick the hand for both yourself and your opponent?

That would be AA vs AK (one of the AA same suit as the K).

 

[DunningKruger]

Good guess, and it's up there, but it's wrong (A6 fares worse than AK in that spot). The single most lopsided pre flop match up in texas holdem is KK vs K2o. Specifically, when the suit of the deuce is covered by one of the kings in the other hand.

Going back to straights and such, ATs is a favourite over 33 but 33 is a favourite over AJs. Note also that 52o does better against 77 than either 42o or 62o. Good luck wrapping your head around that one gentlemen.

I'm just full of useless crap like this lol.

 

[HooDooKoo]

Good guess, and it's up there, but it's wrong (A6 fares worse than AK in that spot). The single most lopsided pre flop match up in texas holdem is KK vs K2o. Specifically, when the suit of the deuce is covered by one of the kings in the other hand.

Going back to straights and such, ATs is a favourite over 33 but 33 is a favourite over AJs. Note also that 52o does better against 77 than either 42o or 62o. Good luck wrapping your head around that one gentlemen.

I'm just full of useless crap like this lol.

I've got one for you, Dunning. I was in an MTT (9-handed) the other day and I was dealt KK in early position. I got all my chips in the middle preflop, got three callers, and lost. I looked up the hand afterward on a poker calculator and, as it turns out, I had a 0.01% chance of winning the hand. See if you can use the info I've given you and your poker experience to reason what the other three hands were.

Regardless, before this hand I would have said it was impossible for a player holding KK to get all his chips in the middle of the table preflop and only have a 0.01% of winning the hand --- but I would have been wrong.

-HooDooKoo

 

[DunningKruger]

I've got one for you, Dunning. I was in an MTT (9-handed) the other day and I was dealt KK in early position. I got all my chips in the middle preflop, got three callers, and lost. I looked up the hand afterward on a poker calculator and, as it turns out, I had a 0.01% chance of winning the hand. See if you can use the info I've given you and your poker experience to reason what the other three hands were.

Regardless, before this hand I would have said it was impossible for a player holding KK to get all his chips in the middle of the table preflop and only have a 0.01% of winning the hand --- but I would have been wrong.

-HooDooKoo

What immediately comes to mind off the top of my head would be if the other hands were AA, AA, and KK. You're drawing pretty slim in that instance, and if those were in fact the three hands you were up against then that's one heck of a story to tell... seeing 4 hands at the same time KK or better.

You'd definitely have more than 0.01% equity in that situation, but as far as winning the pot outright yeah that's probably going to happen around 0.01% of the time give or take (can't stove anything atm). Actually let's take a quick second and verify your probability of winning against those particular hands. There are 2 × 40 possible boards that give you a straight flush to the K and c(44 5) possible boards that can occur, so the chances of winning for your kings would be 10/135751 or approximately 0.00736642824%. Not quite 0.01% but close enough for an odds calculator to round it I'm sure.

If the hands were AA, KK, and QQ, and the aces and queens both happened to match your kings in suit, then you can never win that pot at all. Your overall equity would still be greater than 0.01% thanks to splits but it would be lower than in the AA AA KK scenario above.

As an aside, having literally 0% equity in a pre flop confrontation and no hope of even a split is very difficult to do. You need a minimum of 6 callers, and even then, coming up with the correct 7 hands to make this work is not a simple task. Heh.

 

[HooDooKoo]

What immediately comes to mind off the top of my head would be if the other hands were AA, AA, and KK. You're drawing pretty slim in that instance, and if those were in fact the three hands you were up against then that's one heck of a story to tell... seeing 4 hands at the same time KK or better.

You'd definitely have more than 0.01% equity in that situation, but as far as winning the pot outright yeah that's probably going to happen around 0.01% of the time give or take (can't stove anything atm). I can take a couple of minutes to work out the exact probability since it would be relatively straightforward to do (only a straight flush to the K will win you the pot), but anyone could just stove it and get the precise figures that way so there's no real point.

If the hands were AA, KK, and QQ, and the aces and queens both happened to match your kings in suit, then you can never win that pot at all. Your overall equity would still be greater than 0.01% thanks to splits but it would be lower than in the AA AA KK scenario above.

As an aside, having literally 0% equity in a pre flop confrontation and no hope of even a split is very difficult to do. You need a minimum of 6 callers, and even then, coming up with the correct 7 hands to make this work is not a simple task. Heh.

One of the callers had AA, the other two had AK suited --- so all four aces and kings were accounted for. The two suited hands were like 9% each (straights and flushes), the AA was like 72%, and I was 0.01% (like you said, my only hope of winning was a straight flush to the king).

Pretty unusual.

-HooDooKoo

 

[DunningKruger]

Ah I see. Yeah it amounts to the same thing as all of the aces and kings in the deck comprise the hands in play.

You got your reply in before I got my edit in. I didn't have my phone handy so I worked out the exact odds of hitting your straight flush... just for fun lol.

 

[HooDooKoo]

Ah I see. Yeah it amounts to the same thing as all of the aces and kings in the deck comprise the hands in play.

You got your reply in before I got my edit in. I didn't have my phone handy so I worked out the exact odds of hitting your straight flush... just for fun lol.

I agree with your calculation. The denominator is combin (44,5). The numerator is ((combin(4,4)*combin(40,1))*2). That's 80/1086008, which in decimal form is exactly the number that you calculated above. Nicely done.

-HooDooKoo

 

[RNG]

Interesting. But yeah, if you knew the person has 88, you would take KK.

 

[xzquit]

Pre flop AA is always better chance than KK but what will give you the flop , river and turn is a sheer luck so all depends on this. I personally prefer KK because it gives you more opportunities to win vs 88