The logic behind "never call, always raise".

[shinedown.45]

I think the advice of raising instead of calling relates to preflop play.

 

[credsfan03]

I would say that the always be raising is more of old school shark play and the term was made popular by the movie Rounders.

It still applies but not so literally you want to be aggressive attacking pots but that doesn't mean "I must raise"

What? I dont think that is from rounders at all.

 

[Theromeo2k]

It seems the number one advice is "never call, always raise".

Is this intended to reduce the number of hands you play?
In other words, only play hands that are so good that you can comfortably raise? Forces you to not play marginal hands.

Or it it intended to improve your fold equity? You're always going in strong, so more people are going to fold. Getting you more pots.

Or is it a combination of both?

There's no "never" in poker. Whether to call or raise depends on the situation, table dynamics, history vs certain players, set mining, hand strength, etc. However, this is a good advice since it's designed to, as you said, get you to play less marginal spots.

On the other hand, this advice is not intended to "improve your fold equity". A fish will most likely call your raise no matter if he hasn't seen you play in an hour.

As you get more experienced and exposed to the vast of different spots that poker has to offer, you will notice that in the long run playing less hands weakly and more hands strongly (modestly aggressively) will yield positive results (EV+) into your game.

 

[Vfranks]

I think the advice of raising instead of calling relates to preflop play.

this

 

[SANDYHOOKER KY]

Like to play with a player that does that. Craziest thing iv'e ever heard.

 

[dj11]

There are many things each of us have had to learn.

When we first started, most of us were in a fog, and played really passively. And in that process, we created habits. Learning how to break habits is one of the things we have to do. And the 'cure' for passivity, would be raising every hand you make a decision to play. We would all need to go thru a period of this until that habit is broken. We then move on and have a new tool to use.

In the end, we use that raising tool as what it is...another tool.

 

[JusSumguy]

I think it's supposed to be towards open limping, as opposed to limping behind.

I think the advice of raising instead of calling relates to preflop play.

Yep

The elusive advise is... "Never limp into an unopened pot."

-

 

[LastSon76]

If I remember correctly (and correctly me if I'm wrong guys and gals), Phil Gordon states this "rule" in his Green book. In regards to that advice from him, he's speaking specifically of pre-flop, and even more specifically as the first person in the pot (besides the blinds of course). Even then, he says that there are ALWAYS exceptions to the rule. and that's my 2 cents on this one.

 

[XXPXXP]

if i am remember correctly
there is kind of action called - slowplay
which means , by play nuts/monster, through check and call.
Therefore, with that weapon in your arsenal, Call or check is not always wrong!

 

[blueskies]

Yup there's no "never" in poker. I also think there's some advantages in being a calling station SOMETIMES. You gotta keep thinking and evolving.

 

[dasher]

I think the advice of raising instead of calling relates to preflop play.

Yes and it also is only meant when first to act. Otherwise, it's just an absurdity.

 

[nnuubie]

I am a pretty aggressive player, but i like to see the cards. I am often surprised by what can win AFTER i see the cards, so if i feel i can see them (maybe tight players between me and the button) i might call.

 

[mrh2u]

Is this intended to reduce the number of hands you play?.

Not necessarily. If a person wants to raise, they will raisie no matter how many hands they want to play or have played lol. Regardless of it being a good hand or not

Or it it intended to improve your fold equity?

In most situations it does. Sometimes not - ex: late in a tournament when the blinds and antes are high. A min raise in EP with a medium plus stack can give a huge stack lots of FE if he wants to shove over you

You're always going in strong, so more people are going to fold. Getting you more pots.

They don't always know you have a strong hand unless they have tracking software. A higher percentage of hands played or vpip in certain spots will get your opponent to want to reraise you more often than normal

 

[GGC2912]

I am going to try this advice in my game and see where I get
Thank you very much LadyBugger

 

[BearPlay]

Ok, so I am going to try the overaggressive strategy. It seems to be the winning way. "Never call, always rraise"

Just like in life, when you make generalities such as "never call, always raise", you're setting yourself up for misery. The best answer (and the one which most learning players hate to hear) is: "It depends".

Changing up your table image, changing up your range, changing up your approach, dependent upon player reads, chip stacks, stages of the tournament, whether your raises are being respected, whether to limp to the BB to trap them with a monster, etc., etc.-- there are many variables which have to be addressed in order to succeed at this game.

Ask Gus Hansen, who is notorious for changing things up midstream and often playing ATC (any two cards), how he plays AJ. The best and only acceptable answer, without a lot more information, is: "It depends."

These are good questions. Wishing you success on your poker journey

 

[blueskies]

Yes and it also is only meant when first to act. Otherwise, it's just an absurdity.

Even that is wrong IMO.

Generally you should not be open limping, but there are situations where you want to see a flop as cheaply as possible with as many players in the pot as possible. E.g. You're on a table of fishes who will always see the flop if you have a weak PP or you have a speculative hand.

Do you really want to inflate the pot with your 33 OOP against multiple players knowing that you will hit a blank on the flop most of the time? What if you get 3bet? Do you just toss your hand away? I prefer to limp and call (if you get raised behind) and try to flop a set. Against these mofos, you gonna get paid if you hit your set and they hit any piece of the flop at all.

 

[zEric7x]

I think it would be more accurate to state something like "Raise more than you call or limp most of the time."

 

[dasher]

@blueskies .. No rule is absolute. Even so, first to act pre-flop it's better to raise than limp. Sure there are weak tables where every hand is a family hand, but that's an extreme situation. Even the scenario you describe you'd probably be better off with an initial raise. You'll still get a fair number of callers along with a greater chance to win the hand without making a set. After all, you mis-state the goal - to get more people in - the goal is to win the most money.

I think the rule is a good one and it's exceptions obvious rarities.

 

[Cephas]

Always raise, never call is related to weather you are aggressive or passive, it has nothing to do with being tight or loose...

Sent from my HTC Desire X using Tapatalk

Is this the same thing? Just asking.

 

[DrazaFFT]

^^^
Being tight or lose implies to your hand selection criteria, if you play only big starting hands pre you are tight player and if you play lot of starting hands you are loose, the stat that show whether you are tight or not is VPIP (VP$IP) the percentage of hand you are putting money in your pot by your choice, not by being in blinds, so the vpip of 20 or less is a tight player.

Aggressiveness is determined by a stat called aggression factor, it is a number of how many hands you are raising instead of calling the higher the aggression factor is the more aggressive you are off course...

 

[GGC2912]

I tried to follow, never call always raise style of play....
I had $0 in my account and now.....


I am still at $0 hahaha

 

[KoRnholio]

It seems the number one advice is "never call, always raise".

Is this intended to reduce the number of hands you play?
In other words, only play hands that are so good that you can comfortably raise? Forces you to not play marginal hands.

Or it it intended to improve your fold equity? You're always going in strong, so more people are going to fold. Getting you more pots.

Or is it a combination of both?

It's a combination of all of the above. The general idea is that if you call, you need to have the best hand to win.

Raising is generally considered better because:
a) it can win the pot right then and there, possibly with a worse hand, and no one drawing out on you
b) it can set the stage for a bluff or play later in the hand to win the pot when you would otherwise lose. For instance, playing a big draw strongly and getting a fold when you fire again on the turn without a made hand
c) calling projects weakness, and may encourage an aggressive opponent to keep betting/bluffing into you, often the last barrel you won't be able to call unless you've been sandbagging a huge hand. Raising early on can "nip it in the bud".

 

[Weisssound]

The idea of "raise don't call" is a very short way of describing the aggressiveness needed to make winning plays.

Generally speaking, people flat and limp too much. Because it feels like the safer play. But it's actually not. I've been learning this the hard way...

The value of your hand and the spot that you are playing (position + action at the table) dictates winning power. If you don't have a lot of power to win the hand, get out as soon as possible.

So here's an example. Folds around to the cutoff (guy before the button). He drops a 3xBB/4xBB raise. You have KJ off in the small blind. This is kind of a tough spot. K10 doesn't play fantastically out of position. BUT you do have decent equity to win against another player. If your table image is fairly tight, you haven't raised too much, you don't 3bet often - you may want to drop a 12x/16xBB raise here. It's kind of a bluff, but kind of not. But ultimately this move will factor in the average the cutoff will fold here into your odds of hitting a hand or even having the better hand to start.

At the same time, if the cutoff player is a strong player, particularly if they are of the tight variety - you may not want to play KJ off from the blind. If you feel the spot isn't right, fold it out.

The weakest move is to flat call. Unless you feel you can knock the player off their hand if you miss and/or extract a lot of value if you hit. THEN, flatting is probably cool. But that usually requires being a very good post-flop player or really understanding your opponent.


So that's just one example where either folding or raising is probably a better play than calling.

 

[GWU73]

"never call, always raise" is really only applicable when you are the pre-flop opener, and not always then. The idea is capture the initiative, limit the field and put money in the pot when you have the best hand. It is often better to flat call if for example you are relying on pot odds or implied odds to make your hand profitable.

 

[PoKeRFoRNiA]

It really depends on the table dynamics, players, and position. But in general, raising has so many benefits.
1. You can steal and take down the blinds or pot uncontested, aka fold equity.
2. You can narrow people's range more than if you were to limp and use the flop, which then, it will be harder to narrow their range. Villain can literally have nearly ATC at this point. By raising pre-flop, if flop comes out J 3 3, the chances of villain having a 3 is lot lower than the chances of villain having a 3 if you were to just limp/call and see the flop cheaply.
3. As Weisssound mentioned, the value of your hand and the position dictates your winning hand and when you have that, it's the best opportunity to maximize your winning hand.

But although this is generally true, it shouldn't be applied at every table because it's really dependent on who are at your table. There are times when I don't even apply that logic. If i know that there are lot of fishes at my table who limp and have horrible post-flop skills or are complete calling station, then unless I have a premium hand, I don't bother isolating but rather, look at the flop cheaply, and bet out and since the fishes rarely fold any small or middle pair, I take full advantage of it by getting my stack as the pot as quickly and early as possible and maximize my stack.

The logic of never call, always raise, applies best against players who are fit-or-fold players who will call your pre-flop raise just to see the flop, and then fold out if they miss. These are the best type of players where you will make the pot big by raising, and then take it down uncontested.

Reason why I said that this logic only works in general is because there are few times when this won't work. It's very one-dimensional and some regs/pros who recognize what kind of player u are and that you apply this logic while don't know how to mix up your play, they will trap or bluff you easily and take advantage of you easily.