things fish do that you shouldn't.. aka NLH Poker Basics 101

[micromachine]

never limp with AA or KK...limping can cause others to call with weak hands and hit on the flop..
most time give a little raise..smooth call occasionally from late position​

you are contradicting yourself.

 

[Reptar7]

and so, you still don't make a strong enough hand with suited connectors that you can value bet for stacks against the ultimate station..

and fold equity is the main thing that makes suited connectors profitable, if we don't have that then we really can't be playing them too much.

I understand your reasoning, and yes, playing 78 suited doesn't fit into the cardrunners cookie cutter ABC poker strategy, which is the best way to beat the micros, but I still think there is at least a time and a place.

Looking through my old Pokerstars cash game stats, I have played 78 suited around 300 times to a profit of $15. PTR says I played it 131 times to $30 something but that isn't right. That sample is around 350K hands. It isn't much, and clearly I haven't played it often at all, but there is profit there. Most of the hands were at 2nl and 5nl, so it is like 3-7.5 BI's.

Now, compare that to a hand like JJ, which I have played over a thousand times to around $300 profit. Clearly, usually when I looked down at 78 suited, it hits the muck immediately, but there is a time and a place, IMO.

Doesn't the fact that I have played this hand profitably justify that? OR should I be raising it or folding everytime? I just like to play family pots I guess. I wouldn't like to raise it, because I think the people at those stakes would call, and as when they call I am almost always behind, I just don't want to do it. If I fold, I just slowly lose tiny amounts, and over the course of this sample it probably would add up to like -$1 at least. I would rather be up $15 than down $1 or likely more.

Is this reasoning completely flawed? Should I be raising and narrowing the field and trying to take someones stack? Or should I just fold? I guess I just do what I do because it works. Maybe I am stuck in a delusional state tho.

I'm talking about cash games, btw. If this conversation was about SNGs or HU tables, I would play completely different, and the cards probably wouldn't be that big of a factor.

 

[Reptar7]

This is complete and utter bullshit. Phil hellmuth must be a fish when he has 11 wsop bracelets? Although phil is far from a fish, he is a huge MTT shark. All good poker players go on tilt, some more than others including myself. Going on tilt easily does not make you a fish, it just means you have some anger issues like i do which is more personal than anything . Trust me, it is hard to swallow loosing when you call someone all in with pocket aces as a big stack late stages of an MTT preflop. Trust me, its happened before, and i am almost certain it will happen again.

Aren't anger and tilt two completely different things? You can be as angry and frustrated as you want. Maybe you can't even think straight. But you could still play good poker, or else just leave. Maybe you think you can play good so you keep going, but you should be thinking about if you are playing well, and if you think you aren't, be done.

Tilt originally meant that your anger tilted the table (literally) and your chips would slide to the other players and away from you. A good player should never let this happen. Play good or quit, don't tilt.

 

[Aldito]

If you have say 78 suited from UTG and you limp

People at 5nl and below are just freaking terrible.

Yes, yes they are.

 

[Reptar7]

Poker isn't about never ever.

The value of suited connectors is having equity to play draws aggressively, not to stack off against someone who can't fold third pair. I mean, limp-calling speculative hands OOP pretty much sums up the very essence of the fish mindset. Playing a lot of hands smallball style against people who won't fold is certainly not fine. This isn't a revelation, but every bad player who has ever posted on a forum thought they could do stupid shit profitably, too.

Isn't this whole post a contradiction. You quote my never ever line and say poker isn't about that. Completely true, and that was my point. There is a time and a place. I guess you are saying that you just want one approach to use one everyone? Well, I would rather tailor my approach to each individual player or players, based on what I've seen and my HUD.

Also, Baudib1, what's up with your PTR stats?

 

[Aldito]

Isn't this whole post a contradiction. You quote my never ever line and say poker isn't about that. Completely true, and that was my point. There is a time and a place. I guess you are saying that you just want one approach to use one everyone? Well, I would rather tailor my approach to each individual player or players, based on what I've seen and my HUD.

Also, Baudib1, what's up with your PTR stats?

Limping suited connectors UTG is never ever going to be profitable.

The main value of playing sc's in LP is playing draws aggressively, making better hands fold, having pot control etc.

Go ahead and filter that 78s by position. I guarantee it's a loser UTG and any profit came from CO/BU.

 

[Demonomania]

What about calling an all in pre with those suited connectors? Seems like that would be the worst thing you could do.

nvm ..Hope to see you soon @ 2nl >_>

 

[OMGITSOVER9K]

I understand your reasoning, and yes, playing 78 suited doesn't fit into the cardrunners cookie cutter ABC poker strategy, which is the best way to beat the micros, but I still think there is at least a time and a place.

Looking through my old Pokerstars cash game stats, I have played 78 suited around 300 times to a profit of $15. PTR says I played it 131 times to $30 something but that isn't right. That sample is around 350K hands. It isn't much, and clearly I haven't played it often at all, but there is profit there. Most of the hands were at 2nl and 5nl, so it is like 3-7.5 BI's.

Now, compare that to a hand like JJ, which I have played over a thousand times to around $300 profit. Clearly, usually when I looked down at 78 suited, it hits the muck immediately, but there is a time and a place, IMO.

its not about the cookie strategy.. tbh it's common sense. tried to leave this thread but i'm coming back for the last time to clarify this with you then its back to being a lurker.

if you filter your stats for suited connectors, you should have a positive redline and thats where you're profits will have come from.

if you change the filter to EP raises/limps(?!) can guarantee it can't have shown a profit.

and 300 hands isn't a decent sample size to go with anyway imo. no theory can seriously be made going over such a small sample.

there's normally not a never ever in poker, and yes there maybe a time and a place to limp with suited connectors.. but this, clearly isn't it.

on top of the fact that this post is for beginners who are starting out and therefore should adhere to the 'cookie cutter' strategy then your point doesn't really stand.

besides, if you were going to limp to win stacks.. limp with small pairs over suited connectors? when you have a set you can win stacks, np.

Forget whatever you read/heard, limping is bad. Especially at the micros.
By open limping you lose all initiative in the hand, and leave it to the players behind you to decide your fate.

A lot of new players like to limp UTG with suited connectors and small pairs with the ideal that if they spike it they'll get paid off.

This is wrong. Even if you hit your set/miracle flop, it’s hard for you to get maximum value OOP and even if you pot it for every street you still won't get stacks in unless it’s a family pot.

On top of that, good players behind you will raise with a wide range of hands and you’ll either have to call OOP with a weak hand and check/fold flops we miss or just fold pre-flop.

quoted from myself

 

[baudib1]

Isn't this whole post a contradiction. You quote my never ever line and say poker isn't about that. Completely true, and that was my point. There is a time and a place. I guess you are saying that you just want one approach to use one everyone? Well, I would rather tailor my approach to each individual player or players, based on what I've seen and my HUD.

Also, Baudib1, what's up with your PTR stats?

No it's not a contradiction, it's pointing out that your mindset is wrong. If you applied "never ever" to any concept you are thinking about it the wrong way.

Everything is situation dependent, but each situation is a long-term problem.

As for my PTR stats, I'm a lifetime losing cash game player online.

 

[baudib1]

Aren't anger and tilt two completely different things? You can be as angry and frustrated as you want. Maybe you can't even think straight. But you could still play good poker, or else just leave. Maybe you think you can play good so you keep going, but you should be thinking about if you are playing well, and if you think you aren't, be done.

Tilt originally meant that your anger tilted the table (literally) and your chips would slide to the other players and away from you. A good player should never let this happen. Play good or quit, don't tilt.

No, anger and tilt aren't two completely different things. If you can't think straight, how can you play good poker?

 

[woohoo sue]

after reading all this ...i still don't really know what a fish does......fish and donk I have determined is in the eye of the beholder who may or may not also be a fish or a donk. Nuff said...Let's getter done!

 

[TheKAAHK]

after reading all this ...i still don't really know what a fish does......fish and donk I have determined is in the eye of the beholder who may or may not also be a fish or a donk. Nuff said...Let's getter done!

I think in this context, "fish" is/are newbie players who don't think past their own hand.

 

[bullishwwd]

Things fish do that you shouldn't:
They play a wide range of hands. You should only play pockets, face cards, sometimes suited connectors, and use position whenever possible.
They limp a lot. Raise.
They chase. Don't chase unless you are really, really priced in.
They call a lot. It is better to be the aggressor. You should be the one betting more than the one calling.
They play one table at a time. Put in volume if you want to win, multiple tables reduces variance.
They don't know what a HUD is. You should be making decision's based on yours.
They don't use good BR management. You should play at least 20 BI deep at least at all times.
They tilt. Don't.
They deposit. You should withdraw.

I like the advice!

Good thread and, yes, I do "min bet 1 BB" too often pre-flop from UTG, but it seems like when I do, everyone folds...why? I usually want the action too.

 

[Reptar7]

No, anger and tilt aren't two completely different things. If you can't think straight, how can you play good poker?

Most of the time I feel like I am on autopilot when I play. I can be really, really pissed, I've even punched stuff in the past, but I can continue to just play standard, ABC, winning poker. Angry, but not tilted.

Your sharkscope graph for FullTilt was interesting btw.

 

[OMGITSOVER9K]

Most of the time I feel like I am on autopilot when I play. I can be really, really pissed, I've even punched stuff in the past, but I can continue to just play standard, ABC, winning poker. Angry, but not tilted.

Your sharkscope graph for FullTilt was interesting btw.

back again.

how childish are you?

this is coming from a 19 year old.

Tilt is when anger/emotions actively affect your play, and you can't seriously ever be angry and playing optimal poker.

gone again.

 

[baudib1]

Most of the time I feel like I am on autopilot when I play. I can be really, really pissed, I've even punched stuff in the past, but I can continue to just play standard, ABC, winning poker. Angry, but not tilted.

Your sharkscope graph for FullTilt was interesting btw.

If you get really, really pissed playing poker, it's probably not even worth your time to play. If you think you can play optimally while punching stuff, you are seriously deluded.

 

[Reptar7]

If you get really, really pissed playing poker, it's probably not even worth your time to play. If you think you can play optimally while punching stuff, you are seriously deluded.

I don't usually get angry at all, just a few times it has happened. When I get angry, I insta-quit. If I am in SNGs or a tourney and it happens, I just collect myself and move on. Whenever I take a beat, I might get angry or upset at first, but I immediately move on and try to make sure I don't tilt. It has become sort of second nature, take a beat, immediately actively concentrate on not tilting. Focusing on not tilting even dissipates the anger, imo. If I think I am tilting at all, I quit.

Maybe being angry and being tilted are the same thing, but don't you think that you can control tilting? Like, at least recognize that you are tilting and quit or collect yourself? After gaining some experience playing poker, I think a player can at least make themselves less susceptible to tilt.

I'll edit my post for you:

Things fish do that you shouldn't:
They play a wide range of hands. You should only play pockets, face cards, sometimes suited connectors, and use position whenever possible.
They limp a lot. Raise.
They chase. Don't chase unless you are really, really priced in.
They call a lot. It is better to be the aggressor. You should be the one betting more than the one calling.
They play one table at a time. Put in volume if you want to win, multiple tables reduces variance.
They don't know what a HUD is. You should be making decision's based on yours.
They don't use good BR management. You should play at least 20 BI deep at least at all times.
They tilt. You should try not to.
They deposit. You should withdraw.

Better?

 

[Demonomania]

Limp OOP w/ 78s UTG+(whatever) ....yay, we're awful!

 

[TheKAAHK]

Limp OOP w/ 78s UTG+(whatever) ....yay, we're awful!

Yes, but if you limp utg/3bet with 78s is that not genius? Think about it.....

 

[OMGITSOVER9K]

Yes, but if you limp utg/3bet with 78s is that not genius? Think about it.....

get called, flop A Q 6..

hero??

 

[TheKAAHK]

get called, flop A Q 6..

hero??

Fires 3 barrels and scoops the pot like a boss.

 

[MediaBLITZ]

Tilt can be anything that happens that takes your mind away from the game (like that new waitress - woof!) Not just momentarily but in an ongoing manner.
Not just anger, but also disappointment, cockiness, etc.

Now the effect that tilt has on each player is going to be mostly determined by the depth or level of their game. A level one player is probably going to have to have to have a major meltdown to get thrown out of their game. This makes it easy for them to say they are hardly effected by tilt because they don't need much brain power to continue to play on at that level.

 

[Reptar7]

Tilt can be anything that happens that takes your mind away from the game (like that new waitress - woof!) Not just momentarily but in an ongoing manner.
Not just anger, but also disappointment, cockiness, etc.

Now the effect that tilt has on each player is going to be mostly determined by the depth or level of their game. A level one player is probably going to have to have to have a major meltdown to get thrown out of their game. This makes it easy for them to say they are hardly effected by tilt because they don't need much brain power to continue to play on at that level.

Just to elaborate:

Level 1: What do I have?
Level 2: What does my opponent have?
Level 3: What does my opponent think I have?
Level 4: What does my opponent think that I think they have?
Level 5: What does my opponent think that I think they think I have?

If you are playing Level 1, you probably are a losing player already or you just play that Shortstack strategy, which isn't really poker, it's a percentage game.

 

[OMGITSOVER9K]

If you are playing Level 1, you probably are a losing player already or you just play that Shortstack strategy, which isn't really poker, it's a percentage game.

your point?

 

[TheKAAHK]

Just to elaborate:

Level 1: What do I have?
Level 2: What does my opponent have?
Level 3: What does my opponent think I have? and how do I play accordingly
Level 4: What does my opponent think that I think they have?and how do I exploit it?
Level 5:What do I want my opponent to think I have, already having a good grasp on his range in this spot, as to best maximize value in this hand

If you are playing Level 1, you probably are a losing player already or you just play that Shortstack strategy, which isn't really poker, it's a percentage game.

fyp