Must we always flip?

[Bartown]

IMO early flips where I am +EV I look for I want to build my chips as early as possible to be able to avoid the chip bully in the early mid stages of an mtt. Especially if it is a rebuy and we are still in the Rebuy stages. As stated in the long run those +EV situations as you described are to your benefit in the beginning of mtts.

 

[Luvepoker]

When we are over 100BB deep I tend to stay away from a flip it I can. While I am not afraid to flip against many players here 100 BB is the starting point I could fold depending on the player and the bigger both our stacks are the less likely I will take the flip.

 

[deeznutzz]

Early on in a tournament when the ante is still low I almost always choose to try and out play my opponents instead of just trying to out flop them. AA or KK I'll flip but AK I throw away most of the time. Having a read on my opponent doesnt mean anything when we're flipping are cards. Even extremely loose players are dealt pocket pairs from time to time and if they do I have no way of playing myself out of trouble. I rather let them keep their chips for the moment while I come up with a strategy to take them away.

 

[EvandroGatti]

Hey Guys,

My biggest quirk these days is being in a deep stack tourney in the starting stages, knowing I have the best hand but being faced with an "all in" preflop.

Assuming I have AKsuited, I know the right move is to call against a loose player, especially in position and more than likely facing only one opponent.

Just wondering, how bad of a play is it to just simply fold for the sake of not wanting to flip so early in the tournament? the mindset being "lets play some actual poker instead of racing"

Or is this a losing approach?

For the sake of argument, let assume here that we're not facing AA or KK and this is super early in the tournament. None of my concerns above apply to late stages and facing AA/KK.

Thoughts?

When I see... is gonne...

 

[redboy23]

To be honest, it really depends on my mood. I have grudgingly folded AKo and AKs as well as pocket pairs in the early stages. I have also shoved AA on the very first hand of a MTT and gone packing after a few seconds.

You have a choice and as long as you can leave with the end result go ahead and do whichever play you want. Risk versus Reward - funny enough I may fold heads up but very likely will shove if there are 2 or more players shoving in front of me I get to triple up! and then some. Go for it - Ha Ha.

Never gamble what you cannot afford to lose and have fun.

 

[zinzir]

None of my concerns above apply to late stages

AK has the same pre flop strength no matter the stage of the tournament. Why fold AK out of fear of negative outcome, when you could go all in and double up? Besides, what is the point of lingering in the tournament at the expense of folding very strong hands like AK?

In poker, as in life, if you want to live you must be willing to die.

 

[EarnDAStack]

It always comes down to a flip in tournaments why not take one early get some chips and put yourself in good position for rest of tournament if you bust you can do something. If you do not like to flip don't play tournaments play cash games instead.

Not wanting to flip early especially with AK is a loosing play (unless you can see your opponents cards). You loose out on all the times you are in dominating spot e.g. AQ,AJ or KQ. You also loose out on the spots where you would have won the race. It also makes you very exploitable e.g. instead of 4 bet jamming with AK you call the 3bet oop miss the flop and AJ bluffs you out of the pot.

Uhhhhh? I don't think so. In cash games you go looking for high variance spots and fold equity. Neither of which you get by folding to perspective flips, especially with dead money in the pot. Saying "if you don't like the variance in this game, go play... a more difficult game where dealing well with more variance is required to be a winning player" isn't helping anyone

 

[roger perkins]

I'm amazed at how many people think doubling up in the early stages is worth leaving the tourney in early stages. I played multi day live a lot 100s of tourneys. I started looking at the day 1 leader board and the majority of the time those top 10 didnt even finish in the top 50%. The key to wining a tourney is to avoid flips when possible. Dont get me wrong to win you have to win some flips too. But to think doubling up in the early rounds is needed to win you are wrong. If I face an all in early depending on my knowledge of the player Im probably going to fold AK. Why do I want to risk my tourney life on what probably is a 51-49 probability. Early you have many many more hands coming to build your stack.

 

[Poker_Mike]

Couple of things came to mind when reading your post:

1. If I see you fold (maybe after you are the original raiser) to a shove - then all I have to do to win the hand is shove on you in the future. Sometimes I call here just to let the table know that I won't back down from my original raise.

2. It's not always a flip. If they don't have a pair then I am ahead w AK. My favorite runout is 3-way action w my AK vs AQ and AJ - nobody improves and I win!

3. And finally - no you don't have to ALWAYS flip. Consider their range - position - stack size - ICM and determine if a 50/50 outcome is best for you at that point in the tournament.

Great question.

Good luck !

 

[kalelisback]

I'm amazed at how many people think doubling up in the early stages is worth leaving the tourney in early stages. I played multi day live a lot 100s of tourneys. I started looking at the day 1 leader board and the majority of the time those top 10 didnt even finish in the top 50%. The key to wining a tourney is to avoid flips when possible. Dont get me wrong to win you have to win some flips too. But to think doubling up in the early rounds is needed to win you are wrong. If I face an all in early depending on my knowledge of the player Im probably going to fold AK. Why do I want to risk my tourney life on what probably is a 51-49 probability. Early you have many many more hands coming to build your stack.

I had the same concept in mind....risking tournament life so early is something we face more often than not.

But I was doubting whether this (folding) is a loosing long term mindset.

Couple of things came to mind when reading your post:

1. If I see you fold (maybe after you are the original raiser) to a shove - then all I have to do to win the hand is shove on you in the future. Sometimes I call here just to let the table know that I won't back down from my original raise.

2. It's not always a flip. If they don't have a pair then I am ahead w AK. My favorite runout is 3-way action w my AK vs AQ and AJ - nobody improves and I win!

3. And finally - no you don't have to ALWAYS flip. Consider their range - position - stack size - ICM and determine if a 50/50 outcome is best for you at that point in the tournament.

Great question.

Good luck !

Thanks for the explanation, reason 2 is the best case scenario, and may be the key reason to call for all your chips.

 

[JRTHEKING]

Hey kaleisback...

saw you at the table today in the Jackpot freeroll. I stalled to the money !!!! You're doing great. Hang in there and go take it down!!!!

 

[kalelisback]

saw you at the table today in the Jackpot freeroll. I stalled to the money !!!! You're doing great. Hang in there and go take it down!!!!

Haha...thanks man.

Got sucked out bad on that one just couple mins ago (not gonna explain the bad beat...lol) , was steaming so thought i'd log onto CC. And whatdayaknow, i see this post . Appreciate it!

GL to you !

 

[JRTHEKING]

Saw it...

Haha...thanks man.

Got sucked out bad on that one just couple mins ago (not gonna explain the bad beat...lol) , was steaming so thought i'd log onto CC. And whatdayaknow, i see this post . Appreciate it!

GL to you !

Was railing a bit. Ugly beat You had a shot if you doubled there. You get em next time. Good luck out there. What a minefield that freeroll is.