Shoving with short stack

[miklcct]

How much should I trust the shove-fold charts? A lot of times when I have only very few BBs left, it becomes a game of flips when others can call my shove liberally. For example, with less than 2 BBs left and Ax, it is clearly a shove, then people will call with Kx and outdraw me.

Or even if I am not as bad, like 4 BB, a pair of Ts is clearly a shove and people like to call with Ax. Even when called by KQ it is basically a coin flip.

Mathematically it won't be a good idea try to survive a series of 50% to 70% draws compared to waiting for QQ+ or AK, AQ or similar, isn't it right, especially when the chip leaders aren't risking much of their placing? Where is the problem of my reasoning?

 

[monkeytilter]

How much should I trust the shove-fold charts? A lot of times when I have only very few BBs left, it becomes a game of flips when others can call my shove liberally. For example, with less than 2 BBs left and Ax, it is clearly a shove, then people will call with Kx and outdraw me.

Or even if I am not as bad, like 4 BB, a pair of Ts is clearly a shove and people like to call with Ax. Even when called by KQ it is basically a coin flip.

Mathematically it won't be a good idea try to survive a series of 50% to 70% draws compared to waiting for QQ+ or AK, AQ or similar, isn't it right, especially when the chip leaders aren't risking much of their placing? Where is the problem of my reasoning?

The problem is you will most likely go broke before AK/AQ/QQ+ is dealt to you.

It's better to shove before you get too short as you have no fold equity at 2 or 3BB. There is often luck later on in tournaments, the skill comes in getting to the "later on" often.

If you shove TT at 4BB and get called by Ax you should be cheering, yes you are going to lose some proportion of the time, but you got it in good and that's poker.

You can shove as per the charts (I wouldn't do so above 12BB though), most are written for you shoving into 1 person so make sure you are reading your chart(s) right.

Calling, I'd be tighter than most charts as most people don't shove wide enough, but adjust if you see someone shoving wide (take note of what players are shoving and calling with and at what stack depths!)

 

[nabmom]

In poker there is rarely a “you just always do this” situation. Because a lot depends upon how close you are to the prize bubble, the makeup of your table, etc.
Shove charts exist because they are using math to indicate what move gives you the best odds. Your odds of a pair of tens beating a random call is higher than your odds of getting a premium hand before you blind out. But there still is that element of luck.
So remember that losing a given hand doesn’t mean you made the wrong move mathematically. You also want to avoid getting very short stacked because you lose all your fold equity.

 

[miklcct]

You also want to avoid getting very short stacked because you lose all your fold equity.

In the late stage of the tournament, the average stack is sometimes like only 7 BB, so everyone is waiting for people to bust out. Maybe I have about 4 BB, and I am so scared of pushing something like A7o, even at middle position, because I would be the dog whenever I get called (it is basically a gamble no one behind me has a good hand - A7 vs A8 is nearly a complete loss since the A acts as a blocker), and there is still some good chance I can get a better hand in the coming 3 orbits.

Then the blind increased, my 4 BB becomes only 2.6 BB. After 1 orbit I have only got 1 BB left. I can no longer afford to wait.

I just played a satellite tournament earlier this evening with 5 winners. The majority of the time I was in survival mode, with my stack just a few BB. I made it to the final table just playing premium hands, but eventually got blinded out (forced all in with 0.9 BB), got luck in the draw (4 cards on the board in the same suit matching one of my two cards), then after a few orbits, when the blinds increased again and I got down to 1.7 BB, I shoved my AT and lost to Kx call, failing to survive to the bubble.

 

[MK_]

I think the problem with your thinking is you are just looking to survive/min cash, as opposed at looking at

what gets you in the best position to win, if you are at 10 bbs you're already in shove mode and have no

time to wait for "the QQ+ or AK, AQ or similar"...., besides that you're leaving it up to the dealer and the

luck of the draw, 50 to 70% is pretty good equity honestly, unless you intend to wait for a 100% hand...

if you're habitually allowing yourself to get below 10 bbs you're handicapping yourself and your game👍

 

[OnyxD]

Not everything has to be played to a T the way a chart or GTO solver tells you. That a good baseline to fall to if there's no better solution in sight. Charts will tell you to literally never limp pre-flop or go all-in with mid/deep stack but sometimes that's exactly what you need to do.

Regarding push-fold, like everything it will opponent/table/situation dependent. Even one factor like ITM being 50 places or 5 makes a huge difference as to how you wanna tweak your push-fold strategy. How loose or passive are your opponents? Are you pushing into small, mid or big stacks? What limit are you playing? And many more. There is no one-size-fits-all solution. Here's a simple example: you're preflop against a tight player with low vpip, he only ever opened strong hands. You get KK on SB with like 6BB. A chart will tell you to push that. Do you think there are alternative plays that can extract (more) value off that player?

 

[miklcct]

I think the problem with your thinking is you are just looking to survive/min cash, as opposed at looking at

what gets you in the best position to win, if you are at 10 bbs you're already in shove mode and have no

time to wait for "the QQ+ or AK, AQ or similar"...., besides that you're leaving it up to the dealer and the

luck of the draw, 50 to 70% is pretty good equity honestly, unless you intend to wait for a 100% hand...

if you're habitually allowing yourself to get below 10 bbs you're handicapping yourself and your game👍

If you run two 70% flips, the odds of surviving is only 49%. If you expect you need much more than one or two such flips to win money, the odds will very quickly be against your favour even when it is 70% each time.

Also, I habitually enter tournaments with just 10 to 15 BB starting stack as well, as I frequently late register tournaments because I have read articles that the later I enter, the higher the ICM value is.

 

[MK_]

If you run two 70% flips, the odds of surviving is only 49%. If you expect you need much more than one or two such flips to win money, the odds will very quickly be against your favour even when it is 70% each time.

Also, I habitually enter tournaments with just 10 to 15 BB starting stack as well, as I frequently late register tournaments because I have read articles that the later I enter, the higher the ICM value is.

A 70% hand isn't a flip.... if you're unwilling to play 70% hands what do you think are your odds of surviving? or winning?,

.....you habitually enter tournaments because you read that late entry will give you a higher ICM value, which is true,

what's also true is having a short stack gives up any leverage and also gives up any post flop play,

so this puts you in a position to have to make more push/fold decisions,

if you're unwilling to make them you gain nothing by entering late...

 

[dreamer13]

It depends entirely on your position and theirs.You need to play more cautiously against short stacks, not relaxed.It all depends on the player.Some players boast about how great they are at short-stack play. They convince themselves and others that short-stack play requires mastering some mystical art, but in reality, the path to successful short-stack play lies in tedious, painstaking work away from the tables with a solver, where you'll construct and memorize optimal pushing and calling ranges, as well as the ability to put opponents on those ranges and then react accordingly.

 

[miklcct]

A 70% hand isn't a flip.... if you're unwilling to play 70% hands what do you think are your odds of surviving? or winning?,

.....you habitually enter tournaments because you read that late entry will give you a higher ICM value, which is true,

what's also true is having a short stack gives up any leverage and also gives up any post flop play,

so this puts you in a position to have to make more push/fold decisions,

if you're unwilling to make them you gain nothing by entering late...

If one doubling can get me into the bubble, of course it is a clear shove with 60% or even 55%. But if I need two, or three? It now doesn't look great even with 65%, and now I play passively for people to bust instead, so that I wait until I'm closer to the bubble before making the critical shove.

Also, with 100BB, my opening raise is always 3BB, but with a shorter stack on average is it a better idea to raise with only 2BB or even to limp in other to give me more space to play post flop?

 

[MK_]

Well sure you can make smaller raises with a smaller stack to try and preserve your stack,

the problem is you're giving opponents better pot odds by doing so generally,

I think limping is generally a losing strategy, maybe in a game with a lot

of limpers or in the sb, there's not really room for post flop play

if you miss the flop with a short stack though...

 

[Mario7]

IMO, you can adjust in satelite or ICM situations, but I usually go shove or fold with tiny stacks anyway. The only reason I bet small can be with very strong hands - so when I bet big part of my stack, I am ready to call the opponents shove anyway. The weaker the hand the more fold equity is needed. No limping for sure.

 

[rdwr33]

When I have close to 10BB, and I get any pair or straight cards, I risk going all-in. I believe the chance is higher than waiting for cards with Aces or higher pairs.

 

[fundiver199]

The charts are based on math. So unless you think, people are calling more or less, than they are supposed to, yes then you should follow them. Charts are a simplification though. For more accurate ranges you need to use a program like ICMmizer.

 

[Rmi]

If your game is studied, trust your game. If it's just your invention, you should look into that more.

 

[sibkaz]

Less than 10 BB, I go all in from position, with the fewest opponents...)

 

[GarotoMaroto]

Depends on ICM but probably is bettter to shove what ever you get with 7BBs at least
After that AA KK QQ JJ is alright to shove but who calls?
God bless

 

[Igor Popadyk]

There are charts for small stacks, but you need to learn the stage and opponents, there are very aggressive players, and you can sit them out or give out a bad beat without your participation

 

[miklcct]

The charts are based on math. So unless you think, people are calling more or less, than they are supposed to, yes then you should follow them. Charts are a simplification though. For more accurate ranges you need to use a program like ICMmizer.

In MTTs (excluding freerolls), I seldom see anyone all in with worse than an ace unless at a truly desperate situation with just 1 or 2 BB left. Even when the villain has just 3 BB, and I call with K and another high card, I mostly ended up as the dog.

The result was that the risk was much higher than the chart suggests, because I am risking my whole stack to someone holding an ace or a pair, in order just to steal the blinds, and until I reach a late position or the blinds, there is a high likelihood that someone behind me would have an ace and call my shove.

 

[fundiver199]

In MTTs (excluding freerolls), I seldom see anyone all in with worse than an ace unless at a truly desperate situation with just 1 or 2 BB left. Even when the villain has just 3 BB, and I call with K and another high card, I mostly ended up as the dog.

If other players are not jamming as wide, as they are supposed to, then the adjustment is to call with a stronger range.

The result was that the risk was much higher than the chart suggests, because I am risking my whole stack to someone holding an ace or a pair, in order just to steal the blinds

If you are "stealing the blinds", then per definition you are the first player to move all-in. And if people are only calling you with an ace or a pair, that means, they are probably folding to much (depending on stack size and positions), and this mean, you should jam even wider, that the charts suggest, because then you have more fold equity.

Its fully expected, than when we jam anything but premium hands and get action, then we are usually behind. But this is compensated by the times, we get no action and pick up the blinds and antes uncontested. It can not be true at the same time, that people only call you with very strong hands and never fold.

So it sounds like, you are focusing to much on avoiding the unpleasant feeling of busting from the tournament and try to delay this outcome by folding hands, you are supposed to move all-in with. But this is a fundamental misunderstanding, since the whole point of a tournament is to bust everyone, until someone have won all the chips. So its not a problem to bust, and we do not want to delay the time, we bust, if this mean blinding out and reducing our chance to make a deep run in the tournament.

and until I reach a late position or the blinds, there is a high likelihood that someone behind me would have an ace and call my shove.

Obviously a jamming range from UGT is not as wide as a jamming range from BTN or SB, because as you say, there are more players behind, who might wake up with a hand. But if you are 10BB deep it usually still involve all suited broadways and most pairs. And if you jam and get called by ,then you still have around 40% chance to win, so its not like, this is some kind of huge disaster. You just need to get past this idea, that its very important to survive another hand or another orbit. Its not as long as your final hand was played correctly.

 

[miklcct]

So it sounds like, you are focusing to much on avoiding the unpleasant feeling of busting from the tournament and try to delay this outcome by folding hands, you are supposed to move all-in with. But this is a fundamental misunderstanding, since the whole point of a tournament is to bust everyone, until someone have won all the chips. So its not a problem to bust, and we do not want to delay the time, we bust, if this mean blinding out and reducing our chance to make a deep run in the tournament.

But if we delay the time we bust, we have more chance to survive into the bubble and earn cash even if it means that we won't be able to make it onto the 1st place.