It was almost unheard of when I used to play a lot a few years ago but recently I have been in a few situations where a tightish villian is 4betting me preflop. I am holding KK but these guys are going over the top and raising all in. Being they are fairly tight players, I really dont think they would shove with many hands that I am a huge favorite. Is this unheard of to fold KK in these spots? I really dont see them shoving with AKs or QQ very often and it seems obvious that they are holding AA, which they show me when I have been calling.
You have to put into play the situation at hand here. Position, stack sizes,bbs left, BR, tourney life. A good solid player will always put this into thought but the one who is just happy to hold KK will never think twice.baudib1 said:
🙂
In the game I play in I'm never folding KK pre without a very strong read, and even then I'd probably need to have 150bb+ stack. Last night I got KK in pre against JJ and saw two regs get it in when they BOTH had AQs (that one gave me a stiffy), and another couple of regs with 99 vs AKo. Maybe I just play with degens?
I would say go with your read. If he's a nit and you KNOW he wouldn't 4bet/shove without AA then fold... I guess 😱
In the game I play in I'm never folding KK pre without a very strong read, and even then I'd probably need to have 150bb+ stack. Last night I got KK in pre against JJ and saw two regs get it in when they BOTH had AQs (that one gave me a stiffy), and another couple of regs with 99 vs AKo. Maybe I just play with degens?
I would say go with your read. If he's a nit and you KNOW he wouldn't 4bet/shove without AA then fold... I guess 😱
Bad fold in my honest opinion.
What limits are you playing here by the way? Even tight players will shove 4bet shove JJ+ A,Q+ depending on how active the table is.
Also, his decision to 4 bet shove really depends on how you have been perceived, if you have been perceived as loose sort of player, then this is even a worse fold because he can well be shoving 9'9s+, A,J+
What limits are you playing here by the way? Even tight players will shove 4bet shove JJ+ A,Q+ depending on how active the table is.
Also, his decision to 4 bet shove really depends on how you have been perceived, if you have been perceived as loose sort of player, then this is even a worse fold because he can well be shoving 9'9s+, A,J+
Cafeman31 said:
Then a Ace spikes surely right?😀
Even vs a mega nit, I can't see it ever being profitable to fold kings. Someones 4bet shoving range just doesn't consist of Aces, does it really? Maybe this is why I'm so bad at cash and coulden't ever resist calling of with Kings!
Again though, doesn't ones 4bet shoving range (even if the tighest nit in the world) depend on on how our hero is perceived first and if he's a loose degen then shoving any sort of pair is profitable vs him?
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NEWTDOG101 said:
Never, ever folding Kings, ever on a the bubble, I'm, calling even wider here too with a worse pair and higher cards.
Bubble abuse is standard and you will find people abuse it shoving any two cards if they have you covered, knowing most of the time you can't call unless you're holding a decent pair.
If you really are folding Kings on the bubble then this is a huge leak.
@Pascal yeah I'm beginning to wonder...
Of course maniacs (or 'French people' to save Pascal the trouble) shove with all sorts of crap, but I was specifically talking about (presumably competent?) regs in my post.
I meant they got it in pre AQs vs AQs against each other; I folded KK pre in this one and got out of their way obv 😉ramdeebam said:
Of course maniacs (or 'French people' to save Pascal the trouble) shove with all sorts of crap, but I was specifically talking about (presumably competent?) regs in my post.
The truth is that many people play ak aggresive preflop, and go all in, even if they are very tight. This is because they are trying to get you off a low pair, or hoping you shove with aq, and even if they you do shove with 10 10 they still have a coinflip, what people arent expecting is kk preflop, did you fold? did he show?
Cafeman31 said:
Thing is, I dont really know these guys but their stats look nitty to me at around 13/6-7 down to 8/5,with a low aggression factor. They have full stacks and its only $10NL so I know there are a lot of donks there but for the last couple times I have called with KK, against this type of player, Ive been up against AA. I think its closer with the 13/7 guys but I dont see a lot of tight players pushing in FR cash games with AK/AQ, QQ or less very often at all.
Ive got to get into the games you are playing, shoving with 99+ and AQ haha What stakes do you play?
I did call a couple others last night with not so nitty stats and my KK was up against an AKo shove and he sucked out. oh well..
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Cafeman31 said:
From what I've read about 6 max strategy, shoving with those types of hands is normal. I didn't think it was the case with tight players in Full ring. I tried 6max but went back to FR since I have a hard time shoving PF with 99+ AQ+
I've folded KK once online. I cold 4-bet a guy from the BB in a 3-way pot and initial raiser insta min 5-bet, he was extremely passive and I mucked pretty fast. He said he had AA.
I've done it twice in live games and was incorrect both times.
I've done it twice in live games and was incorrect both times.