Never say never about anything. Several of us have outlined very specific and typically rare cases where folding KK preflop is the correct play, however it's also easy to get caught up in "what if's" and start looking for reasons to fold that aren't valid.
The idea is that you learn enough about your opponents tendencies and ranges, combined with stack sizes, tourney type/structure/payouts (if applicable), and any other information you can use to make the best possible decision every time. 98.2% of the time*, that decision will likely be to ship it preflop with KK. But it's still foolish to reject out of hand that 1.8% of the time when it's right to fold.
* 98.2% was totally pulled out of my arse, but you get the point...
The idea is that you learn enough about your opponents tendencies and ranges, combined with stack sizes, tourney type/structure/payouts (if applicable), and any other information you can use to make the best possible decision every time. 98.2% of the time*, that decision will likely be to ship it preflop with KK. But it's still foolish to reject out of hand that 1.8% of the time when it's right to fold.
* 98.2% was totally pulled out of my arse, but you get the point...
maybe the only time to fold KK is on the bubble of a 200$ buy in tourny when the big stack is shoving all in every hand and you still have 30-50BB ( he has around 80-100) Then MAYBE i advocate folding KK pre flop. But this is the only spot i can think of that folding KK is worth doing. I mean you are most likely crushing his all in range since thats all he is doing to steal blinds and pop the bubble. but he could have an ace rag, and can hit. lol so this scenario i MAY fold KK 🙂
Cafeman31 said:
acky100 said:
Easy as pie.
Full Tilt - $0.50 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3
UTG+1: $60.95
MP: $77.25
MP+1: $54.95
CO: $27.05
BTN: $104.45
SB: $57.85
Hero (BB): $64.45
UTG: $100.75
SB posts SB $0.25, Hero posts BB $0.50
Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero has A:diamond: A:club:
fold, fold, fold, fold, CO raises to $2.00, fold, fold, fold
CO wins $1.25
nh WV! 😀
I was sooooo close to folding here yesterday (seriously!). Fold > Raise > Shove > Call 😉
No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed)
CO ($50)
Button ($59.69)
SB ($20)
BB ($57.45)
UTG ($15.29)
Hero (MP) ($53.35)
Preflop: Hero is MP with A
, A
UTG calls $0.50, Hero bets $2.25, 1 fold, Button calls $2.25, 1 fold, BB raises $7, 1 fold,
I was sooooo close to folding here yesterday (seriously!). Fold > Raise > Shove > Call 😉
No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed)
CO ($50)
Button ($59.69)
SB ($20)
BB ($57.45)
UTG ($15.29)
Hero (MP) ($53.35)
Preflop: Hero is MP with A
UTG calls $0.50, Hero bets $2.25, 1 fold, Button calls $2.25, 1 fold, BB raises $7, 1 fold,
Hero raises $51.10 (All-In), 1 fold, BB calls $45.85
Flop: ($109.70) 9
, 8
, 2
(2 players, 1 all-in)
Turn: ($109.70) 4
(2 players, 1 all-in)
River: ($109.70) K
(2 players, 1 all-in)
Total pot: $109.70
Results:
BB had K
, A
(one pair, Kings).
Hero had A
, A
(one pair, Aces).
Outcome: Hero won $106.70
I think the massive amount of time I spent thinking over my fold (hence the shove!) might have just tipped villain into calling 🙂
Flop: ($109.70) 9
Turn: ($109.70) 4
River: ($109.70) K
Total pot: $109.70
Results:
BB had K
Hero had A
Outcome: Hero won $106.70
I think the massive amount of time I spent thinking over my fold (hence the shove!) might have just tipped villain into calling 🙂
Nope. That one was intentional after reading the part cafeman31 referenced in Elements of Poker. I wanted to do it out of the blinds because everyone knows you win less / lose more playing OOP. Figured if I'm going to fold AA preflop might as well do it when I was in bad position. 🙂 In looking for it in my db yesterday I found that I have folded AA preflop 16 times. 15 by misclick/timeouts and 1 just because.acky100 said:
I thought about it, but played my AA. I am not strong enough to fold it.
(I also looked and out of the last 125 AA I had, I lost money on 10, and made money on the rest so dont know if I will ever be strong enough to fold it..... There are also a LOT of mountains that are "there" that I wont climb.)
(I also looked and out of the last 125 AA I had, I lost money on 10, and made money on the rest so dont know if I will ever be strong enough to fold it..... There are also a LOT of mountains that are "there" that I wont climb.)
Wow WV, you spewy bastard 😀 15 misclicks with AA!!! Never taking advice from you ever again ha ha.
Oh and folding AA in the blinds is a cop out, i bet the blinds were like 4/4 nits too, not cool man! Real men fold AA UTG... 😀
Well atleast you've managed to fold them at all i suppose 🙁 im still whipped by the cards.
Oh and folding AA in the blinds is a cop out, i bet the blinds were like 4/4 nits too, not cool man! Real men fold AA UTG... 😀
Well atleast you've managed to fold them at all i suppose 🙁 im still whipped by the cards.
vanquish said:
this is true
however, if you haven't reached the point where you recognize with some degree of confidence which these times are, you're probably fine just not folding them cause youre gonna be prone to making too many mistakes otherwise
but the times to fold them tend to involve really predictable nits at 50NL+ FR with one of you being in EP or possibly MP. especially if you have a tight image yourself
blankoblanco said:
Great example, it's probably a tiny tiny tiny part of the game and i cant imagine it having much effect on a persons WR so it definitely wont seperate a losing player to a breakeven or winning player but its still just thinking about ranges and if there are times i can save a buyin by knowing that villains range has me beat, im happy to take it even if it is 1 in 50k+ or so hands.