hey, i'm 9k. #3

atlantafalcons0 · Mar 23, 2013

Scourrge said:
As I already said I want to keep the fish's weaker range in. I'm not saying I think queens are ALWAYS good, but I'm not folding to one barrel I don't think. I haven't tried to run any math though.

If you're not 4 betting this preflop I think you are attempting to set mine queens in a 3 bet pot correct?

The 3-bet came from one of the tightest players at the table right?

JOEBOB69 · Mar 23, 2013

atlantafalcons0 said:
If you're not 4 betting this preflop I think you are attempting to set mine queens in a 3 bet pot correct?

The 3-bet came from one of the tightest players at the table right?

Yeah BUT, it looks like he is tring to iso vs the fish imo. Pretty tough spot.

atlantafalcons0 · Mar 23, 2013

JOEBOB69 said:
Yeah BUT, it looks like he is tring to iso vs the fish imo. Pretty tough spot.

So lets recap:

1. You're just calling preflop.

2. You're not folding to any bet on a flop of undercards.

3. You think the tight player is trying to isolate the fish so you think his hand range is not so tight?

If this is the case wouldn't 4 betting preflop be a better option? I understand you're trying to keep the fish in but that might not be the best idea with a hand like queens that doesn't flop all that well 3way. I would be inclined to toss a smallish 4 bet out there and see what kind of response you get from the fish and the tight guy. That being said I don't like this spot at all and I'd be inclined to either raise or fold. I think calling would be the worst option here. Thoughts?

acky100 · Mar 23, 2013

I think calling is better because we make money from fish and whales not regs, which is why i don't squeeze fish out of pots a lot where others do but it'll be pretty easy to play this post flop, we can get away from our hand if nitreg starts potting flops most likely but we can get clear stacks by turn vs fish when reg doesnt cbet which will be often enough to make it totally fine imo. 4bet could be fine if you knew the whale was one of them who never folds a hand until he's seen a flop obv

Matt Vaughan · Mar 23, 2013

atlantafalcons0 said:
So lets recap:

1. You're just calling preflop.

2. You're not folding to any bet on a flop of undercards.

3. You think the tight player is trying to isolate the fish so you think his hand range is not so tight?

If this is the case wouldn't 4 betting preflop be a better option? I understand you're trying to keep the fish in but that might not be the best idea with a hand like queens that doesn't flop all that well 3way. I would be inclined to toss a smallish 4 bet out there and see what kind of response you get from the fish and the tight guy. That being said I don't like this spot at all and I'd be inclined to either raise or fold. I think calling would be the worst option here. Thoughts?

Let's recap:
We're discussing a hand, not trying to put people down for the way they analyze the hand.

I don't understand why you think a 4bet is a solid decision if you're worried that we're behind SB's range? Unless you're 4bet bluffing with QQ which doesn't really make any sense. If you think SB's range is really that tight when isoing a fish, then just fold. But SB's 3bet-iso range should be wider than his standard 3betting range in this spot, not narrower.

Imo, the only things a 4bet can really accomplish are:
- We stack off with SB and are flipping
- We stack off with SB and are crushed
- We 4bet/fold

Even fish will typically fold to a 4bet here without the nuts, so I think all a 4bet does is fold out the weaker range in the hand, and narrow SB's continuing range to something where we're guaranteed to be set-mining.

atlantafalcons0 · Mar 23, 2013

Scourrge said:
Let's recap:
We're discussing a hand, not trying to put people down for the way they analyze the hand.

I don't understand why you think a 4bet is a solid decision if you're worried that we're behind SB's range? Unless you're 4bet bluffing with QQ which doesn't really make any sense. If you think SB's range is really that tight when isoing a fish, then just fold. But SB's 3bet-iso range should be wider than his standard 3betting range in this spot, not narrower.

Imo, the only things a 4bet can really accomplish are:
- We stack off with SB and are flipping
- We stack off with SB and are crushed
- We 4bet/fold

Even fish will typically fold to a 4bet here without the nuts, so I think all a 4bet does is fold out the weaker range in the hand, and narrow SB's continuing range to something where we're guaranteed to be set-mining.

First off I'm not putting anyone down for anything. Secondly, I don't think 4 betting is a solid decision and I don't think calling is either. I'm really leaning towards a fold in this spot. I like the discussion here, I think it's valuable to me because I'm faced with these types of decisions all the time. What I'm trying to figure out is if we do call, what kind of flops can we raise with and what do we do on a board of undercards if the SB bets pot on the flop? Are we calling every street if the cards are undercards? When do we slow down? When do we raise?

Matt Vaughan · Mar 23, 2013

atlantafalcons0 said:
First off I'm not putting anyone down for anything. Secondly, I don't think 4 betting is a solid decision and I don't think calling is either. I'm really leaning towards a fold in this spot. I like the discussion here, I think it's valuable to me because I'm faced with these types of decisions all the time. What I'm trying to figure out is if we do call, what kind of flops can we raise with and what do we do on a board of undercards if the SB bets pot on the flop? Are we calling every street if the cards are undercards? When do we slow down? When do we raise?

Ok maybe I misread the tone - apologies.

These questions depend most on how we expect villain to play in a multiway 3bet pot. If we know he's going to play faceup in this spot then we can fold facing pretty much any aggression. If he's always going to cbet a T high, dry board then I'm never folding the flop and may just try to GII against the fish.

I'm kind of curious what you think SB's 3bet range is here? Because I don't think flatting is bad, but you seem very worried that we're dominated like all the time here.

At least for me, part of why I feel fine in this spot is that we have position on the SB.

dj11 · Mar 23, 2013

Gotta see a flop with QQ, doesn't mean you have to incur more expense doing it. From the action up to whats shown, it is doubtful either villain will muck a big 4 bet.

Call. See the flop.

JOEBOB69 · Mar 23, 2013

Well imo in this certain spot i think SB prob is opening up his 3betting range to a depolarized value range of maybe 6%-7% which we crush. Given his normal tight range though i think his default would be to cbet alot here maybe 75-80%. I'm not worried about pre post is where it could get tricky even when we have position.

hopedieslast · Mar 23, 2013

how bad did the bankroll get hit? i usually keep 50 buyins for holdem and 80 buyins for omaha......i know thats alot but online poker i always keep more buyins than live.

atlantafalcons0 · Mar 23, 2013

Scourrge said:
Ok maybe I misread the tone - apologies.

These questions depend most on how we expect villain to play in a multiway 3bet pot. If we know he's going to play faceup in this spot then we can fold facing pretty much any aggression. If he's always going to cbet a T high, dry board then I'm never folding the flop and may just try to GII against the fish.

I'm kind of curious what you think SB's 3bet range is here? Because I don't think flatting is bad, but you seem very worried that we're dominated like all the time here.

At least for me, part of why I feel fine in this spot is that we have position on the SB.

I guess it's his tiny 3bet % that's throwing me off here. I'm stuck thinking he has a range like AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK and sometimes AQ?

I like the fact that we have position on the guy but it seems like when I get into these situations I'm usually behind. I guess calling could be a good option but I don't like getting it all in on the flop on a ten high board because more often than not the guy has us crushed.

Of course the optimal situation in this spot is for use to call, see a flop, spike a queen, get it all in and SB calls with his aces/kings.

That's why I'm thinking we are setmining with the queens.

Also, what about the situation when we do call and the UTG shoves all in?

Matt Vaughan · Mar 23, 2013

I said GII against the fish, not the SB. I think we are likely crushing UTG's range, so I'm pretty happy GII against him on J high or lower boards.

Plus villain's 3bet is 3.83%, which looks like roughly AQ+/QQ+, which we roughly flip against, but I am with other people in thinking that his 3bet range in THIS spot is wider than the #'s suggest.

OMGITSOVER9K · Mar 23, 2013

vs reg-ish.

PokerStars - €0.25 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: €16.72 (VPIP: 29.41, PFR: 17.65, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, hands: 19)
SB: €26.92 (VPIP: 25.25, PFR: 18.81, 3Bet Preflop: 12.20, Hands: 204)
Hero (BB): €25.35
UTG: €25.00 (VPIP: 16.67, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 6)
CO: €66.71 (VPIP: 22.22, PFR: 18.52, 3Bet Preflop: 8.22, Hands: 247)

SB posts SB €0.10, Hero posts BB €0.25

Pre Flop: (pot: €0.35) Hero has T:heart: Q:heart:

fold, CO raises to €0.75, fold, fold, Hero calls €0.50

Flop: (€1.60, 2 players) K:heart: 5:heart: 4:diamond:
Hero checks, CO bets €0.80, Hero raises to €2.25, CO raises to €4.90, Hero?

duggs · Mar 23, 2013

overcall seem like the best option for QQ hand above, we have a fish we dont want to blow away. 4b/c 4b/f are both meh.

duggs · Mar 23, 2013

i float the flop with Q10hh there.

dj11 · Mar 23, 2013

c/c till that flush hits

atlantafalcons0 · Mar 23, 2013

OMGITSOVER9K said:
vs reg-ish.

PokerStars - €0.25 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: €16.72 (VPIP: 29.41, PFR: 17.65, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 19)
SB: €26.92 (VPIP: 25.25, PFR: 18.81, 3Bet Preflop: 12.20, Hands: 204)
Hero (BB): €25.35
UTG: €25.00 (VPIP: 16.67, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 6)
CO: €66.71 (VPIP: 22.22, PFR: 18.52, 3Bet Preflop: 8.22, Hands: 247)

SB posts SB €0.10, Hero posts BB €0.25

Pre Flop: (pot: €0.35) Hero has T♥ Q♥

fold, CO raises to €0.75, fold, fold, Hero calls €0.50

Flop: (€1.60, 2 players) K♥ 5♥ 4♦
Hero checks, CO bets €0.80, Hero raises to €2.25, CO raises to €4.90, Hero?

I'd probably just call the flop bet instead of raising. As played I'd still float around in hopes of the ace of hearts hitting the turn.

pocketehs · Mar 23, 2013

OMGITSOVER9K said:
vs reg-ish.

PokerStars - €0.25 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: €16.72 (VPIP: 29.41, PFR: 17.65, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 19)
SB: €26.92 (VPIP: 25.25, PFR: 18.81, 3Bet Preflop: 12.20, Hands: 204)
Hero (BB): €25.35
UTG: €25.00 (VPIP: 16.67, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 6)
CO: €66.71 (VPIP: 22.22, PFR: 18.52, 3Bet Preflop: 8.22, Hands: 247)

SB posts SB €0.10, Hero posts BB €0.25

Pre Flop: (pot: €0.35) Hero has T♥ Q♥

fold, CO raises to €0.75, fold, fold, Hero calls €0.50

Flop: (€1.60, 2 players) K♥ 5♥ 4♦
Hero checks, CO bets €0.80, Hero raises to €2.25, CO raises to €4.90, Hero?

I see why you posted the hand cause I think we have a ton of FE raising the flop but when he 3bets it I think its a fold 9k. I would play it the same.

the only reason i think it should be a call is cause villain is kinda aggro so i think flatting OTF might be okay cause we can pick up a ton of equity OTT, right?

Matt Vaughan · Mar 23, 2013

pocketehs said:
I see why you posted the hand cause I think we have a ton of FE raising the flop but when he 3bets it I think its a fold 9k. I would play it the same.

the only reason i think it should be a call is cause villain is kinda aggro so i think flatting OTF might be okay cause we can pick up a ton of equity OTT, right?

You can't really fold to the 3bet getting that price.

Ducky7 · Mar 23, 2013

OMGITSOVER9K said:
vs reg-ish.

PokerStars - €0.25 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: €16.72 (VPIP: 29.41, PFR: 17.65, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 19)
SB: €26.92 (VPIP: 25.25, PFR: 18.81, 3Bet Preflop: 12.20, Hands: 204)
Hero (BB): €25.35
UTG: €25.00 (VPIP: 16.67, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 6)
CO: €66.71 (VPIP: 22.22, PFR: 18.52, 3Bet Preflop: 8.22, Hands: 247)

SB posts SB €0.10, Hero posts BB €0.25

Pre Flop: (pot: €0.35) Hero has T♥ Q♥

fold, CO raises to €0.75, fold, fold, Hero calls €0.50

Flop: (€1.60, 2 players) K♥ 5♥ 4♦
Hero checks, CO bets €0.80, Hero raises to €2.25, CO raises to €4.90, Hero?

Dont think you rep anything but the FD really (maybe odd set) when you c/r this flop and i like it alot less as you have no gutter or over for that little bit of extra equity than your 9 outs, obvs when you 3b the flop you cant fold if he jams, but i like x/c and c/r turns as you still fold all his bluffs and maybe some value hands

hackmeplz · Mar 23, 2013

atlantafalcons0 said:
Is this considered set mining with queens?

When analyzing hands we shouldn't try to use labels like this that don't really mean much. My logic for flatting here is:

1. The fish will continue with a ridiculously wide range. When we fold we don't get to make money off him and when we 4b he is more likely to fold his weaker hands.

2. The reg will play so face up 3-way oop with a fish in the pot that I think we play close to perfect postflop. If he does pot a T-high flop I'm folding btw.

I don't think a 4b would be terrible but in general I think the fish folds more than enough to justify it and the reg is not going to let us see a flop when he does have KK+.

hackmeplz · Mar 23, 2013

And yeah what other people said about QThh hand not a fan of raising there at all. Just ch/c.

Matt Vaughan · Mar 23, 2013

Fwiw deciding whether to flat or raise with draws is something I struggle with a lot. Dunno about others.

atlantafalcons0 · Mar 24, 2013

hackmeplz said:
When analyzing hands we shouldn't try to use labels like this that don't really mean much. My logic for flatting here is:

1. The fish will continue with a ridiculously wide range. When we fold we don't get to make money off him and when we 4b he is more likely to fold his weaker hands.

2. The reg will play so face up 3-way oop with a fish in the pot that I think we play close to perfect postflop. If he does pot a T-high flop I'm folding btw.

I don't think a 4b would be terrible but in general I think the fish folds more than enough to justify it and the reg is not going to let us see a flop when he does have KK+.

This is exactly what I was looking for. Awesome stuff here!

RamdeeBen · Mar 24, 2013

OMGITSOVER9K said:
vs reg-ish.

PokerStars - €0.25 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: €16.72 (VPIP: 29.41, PFR: 17.65, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 19)
SB: €26.92 (VPIP: 25.25, PFR: 18.81, 3Bet Preflop: 12.20, Hands: 204)
Hero (BB): €25.35
UTG: €25.00 (VPIP: 16.67, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 6)
CO: €66.71 (VPIP: 22.22, PFR: 18.52, 3Bet Preflop: 8.22, Hands: 247)

SB posts SB €0.10, Hero posts BB €0.25

Pre Flop: (pot: €0.35) Hero has T♥ Q♥

fold, CO raises to €0.75, fold, fold, Hero calls €0.50

Flop: (€1.60, 2 players) K♥ 5♥ 4♦
Hero checks, CO bets €0.80, Hero raises to €2.25, CO raises to €4.90, Hero?

I prefer a x/c line on this flop.

hey, i'm 9k. #3

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