hey, i'm 9k. #3

OMGITSOVER9K · Mar 30, 2013

anything he checks back the turn with probably folds to another barrel bar AQ/sometimes KQ

naming random hands won't get you far in this conversation

edit: who says he's gonna bet the same as us? $13 is small into that pot, not noticeably but deffo less than most people would bet

Ducky7 · Mar 30, 2013

Ye i understand that but why would he call that flop with AT of spades and check back turn?

atlantafalcons0 · Mar 30, 2013

Ducky7 said:
Ye i understand that but why would he call that flop with AT of spades and check back turn?

Because he's a terrible player trying to see the river for free. Who cares why. You are the one that wanted me to state a hand that a player (who could be bad) would check back the turn. I did that. Now I'd like you to explain why you think maybe seeing the river for free is a bad thing?

atlantafalcons0 · Mar 30, 2013

OMGITSOVER9K said:
anything he checks back the turn with probably folds to another barrel bar AQ/sometimes KQ

naming random hands won't get you far in this conversation

edit: who says he's gonna bet the same as us? $13 is small into that pot, not noticeably but deffo less than most people would bet

I'm not trying to argue with you guys, I'm just trying to learn why you feel like checking the turn is soooooo bad here? I'm not saying he'll bet more or less than $13. Obviously if he bets less than $13 we're calling right?

Ducky7 · Mar 30, 2013

atlantafalcons0 said:
Because he's a terrible player trying to see the river for free. Who cares why. You are the one that wanted me to state a hand that a player (who could be bad) would check back the turn. I did that. Now I'd like you to explain why you think maybe seeing the river for free is a bad thing?

Based on his stats we know he isnt bad, i dont think seeing the river is bad for free it would be lovely, i just dont think its going to happen

OMGITSOVER9K · Mar 30, 2013

vs villain we have no stats but we're assuming that his range is capped since he flatted over 4betting vs our perceived strong range..

the flop is dry, so we have less value combos and even though the same is for him, he's IP so floating there is good.

x/c turn makes no sense for us because we have no SDE, no-one's checking back the turn here with anything except JJ/TT that fold to a turn barrel anyway.. and if they don't we have equity so meh.

x/c here should only be for value, and we don't have a value hand yet.

if he bets less that $13 we're calling agreed, but he never does.

not trying to argue, just don't see why imaginary villains having ATs here justifies us x/c turn to see free rivers.

tl;dr - we don't need to hit draws to win pots, fold equity is better vs regs/reggy players

atlantafalcons0 · Mar 30, 2013

Ducky7 said:
Based on his stats we know he isnt bad, i dont think seeing the river is bad for free it would be lovely, i just dont think its going to happen

OMGITSOVER9K said:
vs villain we have no stats but we're assuming that his range is capped since he flatted over 4betting vs our perceived strong range..

the flop is dry, so we have less value combos and even though the same is for him, he's IP so floating there is good.

x/c turn makes no sense for us because we have no SDE, no-one's checking back the turn here with anything except JJ/TT that fold to a turn barrel anyway.. and if they don't we have equity so meh.

x/c here should only be for value, and we don't have a value hand yet.

if he bets less that $13 we're calling agreed, but he never does.

not trying to argue, just don't see why imaginary villains having ATs here justifies us x/c turn to see free rivers.

tl;dr - we don't need to hit draws to win pots, fold equity is better vs regs/reggy players

Fair enough to both of you.

Thanks for the explanation.

Fwiw - I don't play these stakes so I'm sure you both have much more experience than I do. I'm trying to be the best player I can be. I like to post what I think I would do in these situations and then read the responses from more experienced players (at higher stakes) like the both of you.

Ducky7 · Mar 30, 2013

Here to help

Matt Vaughan · Mar 30, 2013

Reason why turning hand face up is bad:
We don't get paid off the times when we do hit on the river, and if we have to call a bet we likely aren't getting the right immediate odds to call to try to hit a flush.

Reason why villain would never check back a value hand:
The board is wet, and he doesn't WANT to give free river cards.

Reason why villain would never check back a ATss:
If he floats the flop with a hand that has very little showdown value, it has to be for the purpose of taking the pot on the turn or river. Therefore he never checks back the turn with a hand he floats the flop with.

Reason checking the turn is bad for US:
- Villain never checks it back
- Our hand is face up
- If villain never checks it back and our hand is face up, then we still have to call a bet on the turn, and when we DO hit on the river we're not getting paid off, and when we DON'T hit on the river we have no fold equity and can't win the hand.

pocketehs · Mar 30, 2013

Yeah agree with everything thats been said. River shove sizing sucks so much cause I think it needs to be bigger to get more folds cause hes getting such a good price to call

If Im the villain OTT and hero checks Im betting with 100% of my range b/c hes essentially giving up or x/j. Dont think hero ever x/cs the turn..

atlantafalcons0 · Mar 30, 2013

Scourrge said:
Reason why turning hand face up is bad:
We don't get paid off the times when we do hit on the river, and if we have to call a bet we likely aren't getting the right immediate odds to call to try to hit a flush.

Reason why villain would never check back a value hand:
The board is wet, and he doesn't WANT to give free river cards.

Reason why villain would never check back a ATss:
If he floats the flop with a hand that has very little showdown value, it has to be for the purpose of taking the pot on the turn or river. Therefore he never checks back the turn with a hand he floats the flop with.

Reason checking the turn is bad for US:
- Villain never checks it back
- Our hand is face up
- If villain never checks it back and our hand is face up, then we still have to call a bet on the turn, and when we DO hit on the river we're not getting paid off, and when we DON'T hit on the river we have no fold equity and can't win the hand.

Fair enough.

Thanks for the explanation.

Fwiw - I don't play these stakes so I'm sure you have much more experience than I do. I'm trying to be the best player I can be. I like to post what I think I would do in these situations and then read the responses from more experienced players (at higher stakes) like you.

Thanks for helping me learn pokerz.

OMGITSOVER9K · Mar 30, 2013

dunno if our hand is face up to FD's when we x/c turns..

Matt Vaughan · Mar 30, 2013

atlantafalcons0 said:
Fair enough.

Thanks for the explanation.

Fwiw - I don't play these stakes so I'm sure you have much more experience than I do. I'm trying to be the best player I can be. I like to post what I think I would do in these situations and then read the responses from more experienced players (at higher stakes) like you.

Thanks for helping me learn pokerz.

Nice personalized response lol.

OMGITSOVER9K said:
dunno if our hand is face up to FD's when we x/c turns..

Not specifically FD's but weak and/or drawing hands perhaps?

OMGITSOVER9K · Mar 30, 2013

nah, more likely JJ/TT if villain thinks I 3bet them for value vs his BTN range.

some Qx too.

edit: Arran I see you lurking

OMGITSOVER9K · Mar 30, 2013

3.6k hands today, only up a bi

ran like crap but what can you do

only spew of the day, but it was pretty terrible lmao

PokerStars - $0.50 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG: $51.50 (VPIP: 11.32, PFR: 11.32, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 55)
Hero (CO): $52.75
BTN: $50.00 (VPIP: 30.77, PFR: 15.38, 3Bet Preflop: 16.67, Hands: 13)
SB: $20.64 (VPIP: 23.44, PFR: 14.06, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 66)
BB: $37.50 (VPIP: 24.63, PFR: 20.90, 3Bet Preflop: 6.38, Hands: 139)

SB posts SB $0.25, BB posts BB $0.50

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.75) Hero has 7:spade: 8:spade:

fold, Hero raises to $1.50, BTN raises to $4.50, fold, fold, Hero raises to $9.50, BTN calls $5.00

Flop: ($19.75, 2 players) 3:spade: K:club: 2:club:
Hero bets $9.00, BTN calls $9.00

Turn: ($37.75, 2 players) 4:heart:
Hero bets $34.25 and is all-in, BTN calls $31.50 and is all-in

River: ($100.75, 2 players) A:spade:

Hero shows 7:spade: 8:spade: (High Card, Ace) (Pre 42%, Flop 6%, Turn 0%)
BTN shows K:heart: A:diamond: (Two Pair, Aces and Kings) (Pre 58%, Flop 94%, Turn 100%)
BTN wins $98.25

OMGITSOVER9K · Mar 31, 2013

and another, don't think this is as bad though?

PokerStars - $0.50 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG: $50.00 (VPIP: 28.57, PFR: 20.41, 3Bet Preflop: 10.53, Hands: 50)
CO: $72.61 (VPIP: 16.90, PFR: 14.08, 3Bet Preflop: 6.06, Hands: 291)
BTN: $54.16 (VPIP: 22.03, PFR: 17.51, 3Bet Preflop: 5.80, Hands: 181)
Hero (SB): $50.00
BB: $54.43 (VPIP: 18.60, PFR: 16.28, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 45)

Hero posts SB $0.25, BB posts BB $0.50

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.75) Hero has A:club: K:spade:

fold, CO raises to $1.50, fold, Hero raises to $5.00, fold, CO calls $3.50

Flop: ($10.50, 2 players) T:diamond: 5:club: 2:club:
Hero bets $6.00, CO calls $6.00

Turn: ($22.50, 2 players) 5:spade:
Hero checks, CO bets $13.00, Hero calls $13.00

River: ($48.50, 2 players) 9:heart:
Hero bets $26.00 and is all-in

atlantafalcons0 · Mar 31, 2013

OMGITSOVER9K said:
and another, don't think this is as bad though?

PokerStars - $0.50 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG: $50.00 (VPIP: 28.57, PFR: 20.41, 3Bet Preflop: 10.53, Hands: 50)
CO: $72.61 (VPIP: 16.90, PFR: 14.08, 3Bet Preflop: 6.06, Hands: 291)
BTN: $54.16 (VPIP: 22.03, PFR: 17.51, 3Bet Preflop: 5.80, Hands: 181)
Hero (SB): $50.00
BB: $54.43 (VPIP: 18.60, PFR: 16.28, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 45)

Hero posts SB $0.25, BB posts BB $0.50

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.75) Hero has A♣ K♠

fold, CO raises to $1.50, fold, Hero raises to $5.00, fold, CO calls $3.50

Flop: ($10.50, 2 players) T♦ 5♣ 2♣
Hero bets $6.00, CO calls $6.00

Turn: ($22.50, 2 players) 5♠
Hero checks, CO bets $13.00, Hero calls $13.00

River: ($48.50, 2 players) 9♥
Hero bets $26.00 and is all-in

The check call on the turn is puzzling, reasoning?
Yes, I would agree this one isn't as bad as the first one....

pocketehs · Mar 31, 2013

OMGITSOVER9K said:
3.6k hands today, only up a bi ran like crap but what can you do

only spew of the day, but it was pretty terrible lmao

PokerStars - $0.50 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG: $51.50 (VPIP: 11.32, PFR: 11.32, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 55)
Hero (CO): $52.75
BTN: $50.00 (VPIP: 30.77, PFR: 15.38, 3Bet Preflop: 16.67, Hands: 13)
SB: $20.64 (VPIP: 23.44, PFR: 14.06, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 66)
BB: $37.50 (VPIP: 24.63, PFR: 20.90, 3Bet Preflop: 6.38, Hands: 139)

SB posts SB $0.25, BB posts BB $0.50

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.75) Hero has 7♠ 8♠

fold, Hero raises to $1.50, BTN raises to $4.50, fold, fold, Hero raises to $9.50, BTN calls $5.00

Flop: ($19.75, 2 players) 3♠ K♣ 2♣
Hero bets $9.00, BTN calls $9.00

Turn: ($37.75, 2 players) 4♥
Hero bets $34.25 and is all-in, BTN calls $31.50 and is all-in

River: ($100.75, 2 players) A♠

Hero shows 7♠ 8♠ (High Card, Ace) (Pre 42%, Flop 6%, Turn 0%)
BTN shows K♥ A♦ (Two Pair, Aces and Kings) (Pre 58%, Flop 94%, Turn 100%)
BTN wins $98.25

I dont like this hand dude. i dont even like 4 betting here without blockers. I dont think we get much to fold OTT except like JJ/QQ right?

Matt Vaughan · Mar 31, 2013

OMGITSOVER9K said:
and another, don't think this is as bad though?

PokerStars - $0.50 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG: $50.00 (VPIP: 28.57, PFR: 20.41, 3Bet Preflop: 10.53, Hands: 50)
CO: $72.61 (VPIP: 16.90, PFR: 14.08, 3Bet Preflop: 6.06, Hands: 291)
BTN: $54.16 (VPIP: 22.03, PFR: 17.51, 3Bet Preflop: 5.80, Hands: 181)
Hero (SB): $50.00
BB: $54.43 (VPIP: 18.60, PFR: 16.28, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 45)

Hero posts SB $0.25, BB posts BB $0.50

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.75) Hero has A♣ K♠

fold, CO raises to $1.50, fold, Hero raises to $5.00, fold, CO calls $3.50

Flop: ($10.50, 2 players) T♦ 5♣ 2♣
Hero bets $6.00, CO calls $6.00

Turn: ($22.50, 2 players) 5♠
Hero checks, CO bets $13.00, Hero calls $13.00

River: ($48.50, 2 players) 9♥
Hero bets $26.00 and is all-in

What exactly are you repping here?

hackmeplz · Mar 31, 2013

OMGITSOVER9K said:
and another, don't think this is as bad though?

PokerStars - $0.50 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG: $50.00 (VPIP: 28.57, PFR: 20.41, 3Bet Preflop: 10.53, Hands: 50)
CO: $72.61 (VPIP: 16.90, PFR: 14.08, 3Bet Preflop: 6.06, Hands: 291)
BTN: $54.16 (VPIP: 22.03, PFR: 17.51, 3Bet Preflop: 5.80, Hands: 181)
Hero (SB): $50.00
BB: $54.43 (VPIP: 18.60, PFR: 16.28, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 45)

Hero posts SB $0.25, BB posts BB $0.50

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.75) Hero has A♣ K♠

fold, CO raises to $1.50, fold, Hero raises to $5.00, fold, CO calls $3.50

Flop: ($10.50, 2 players) T♦ 5♣ 2♣
Hero bets $6.00, CO calls $6.00

Turn: ($22.50, 2 players) 5♠
Hero checks, CO bets $13.00, Hero calls $13.00

River: ($48.50, 2 players) 9♥
Hero bets $26.00 and is all-in

What better is folding the river? If you're going to spew I much prefer ch/c to shoving.

OMGITSOVER9K · Mar 31, 2013

87s hand is spew, I posted it because its spew.

Hack, this one might be a bit thin but villains at my limits never call off here..

vs this villain it wasn't as bad (imo) because he was nittier pre.. because of that I can pretty much narrow his range to AQ/JJ-88 (+blockers to his 'nut' range) tripling achieves the same as x/c jam river imo.

pretty sure to villain I have QQ+ and no villain takes this as a bluff since FD's and air barrel turns over x/c.

hackmeplz · Mar 31, 2013

You really think people are folding JT here?

Matt Vaughan · Mar 31, 2013

QQ+ would bet flop, x/c turn and donk-shove riv??

OMGITSOVER9K · Mar 31, 2013

when we talked about this before you lot said it was a valid line -.-

I said regs fold to that line/triples 90%+.

JOEBOB69 · Mar 31, 2013

I don't like how the hand was played, from the turn on.

hey, i'm 9k. #3

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