I'm a little conflicted... If they are folding a crap ton on the flop then sure, I guess 3betting is fine, but I also feel like we get ourselves into trickier spots postflop when we 3bet a hand like this and pick up some equity. In this particular spot it plays itself because we catch pretty much a dream board, but a lot of times we will have 2nd pair or a GS or OESD, and meh. Getting too attached to those can prob cost us money as well.
Back story on Joe Bob as player.
I've started playing poker (7 stud) when i was ~8-9 years old with my uncle. He and his friends used to have a Fri. night home game every week. They played .25 .50 with the high card doing the bring in.
The game seemed to always end,and then they started rolling the dice. I never shyed away from the gamble side. When i was in my early teens i had a pretty big roll,that i got from working in the evening,weekends, and during the summer (also from the games over the years).
When they started rolling dice for $1 etc. I would push for the gamble of high dicing for $20, then it evolved into rolling for $100 and up. Finally i would get no action because everyone had scared money except me. I continued to play with them and other games until i was ~19 and the game seemed to break off.
Around the time the game was breaking off i started tring to sneak in a casino near me the Silver Star. Some times i sneeked in,some times that wouldn't let me in. In any case we had one of the biggest stud games in the South going on. It was $5-$20 spread limit stud game. I made a lot of money in that game.
In 2003 i was sitting around the table playing my normal stud game. When a dealer asked me if i ever played NL hold'em. My answer was obv no. He said the future (money) was going to be in that game i.e. Money Maker. All i can say is that he seen the effect of it comeing probably before any one else.
I bought some books, learnt a little bit about the game. An just ****ing killed the game tbh. Then i think 2005 not quite sure, but my wife informed me about online poker. Then i started playing on Party Poker.
I thought this is amazing every time i want to play it's there. No more driving ~2 hours one way to go play. Then i moved sties from Party,to Stars then to FTP. I don't think people remember or they weren't around to know how ****ing soft the games were back then.
I went from a $200 deposit to around ~$20k in a month or two single tabling. Funny thing was i didn't even know you could muti table back then lol. My biggest fault by far was BRM. I didn't even know what it meant. That was the problem coming from live to online for me.
If i went to the casino to play 2/5 i would bring 1,000-1,500. I treated online the same way. Say i had 25k in my account my thought was hell let me go play 25/50 an see what happens. What a **** up i was. Even though i have withdrawed way more than i have deposited,i feel i have just gave away so much money in my early years of online poker.
Moral of the story,there is not moral of the story. Just that we learn an get older. Thats a little of JoeBobs poker past.
I've started playing poker (7 stud) when i was ~8-9 years old with my uncle. He and his friends used to have a Fri. night home game every week. They played .25 .50 with the high card doing the bring in.
The game seemed to always end,and then they started rolling the dice. I never shyed away from the gamble side. When i was in my early teens i had a pretty big roll,that i got from working in the evening,weekends, and during the summer (also from the games over the years).
When they started rolling dice for $1 etc. I would push for the gamble of high dicing for $20, then it evolved into rolling for $100 and up. Finally i would get no action because everyone had scared money except me. I continued to play with them and other games until i was ~19 and the game seemed to break off.
Around the time the game was breaking off i started tring to sneak in a casino near me the Silver Star. Some times i sneeked in,some times that wouldn't let me in. In any case we had one of the biggest stud games in the South going on. It was $5-$20 spread limit stud game. I made a lot of money in that game.
In 2003 i was sitting around the table playing my normal stud game. When a dealer asked me if i ever played NL hold'em. My answer was obv no. He said the future (money) was going to be in that game i.e. Money Maker. All i can say is that he seen the effect of it comeing probably before any one else.
I bought some books, learnt a little bit about the game. An just ****ing killed the game tbh. Then i think 2005 not quite sure, but my wife informed me about online poker. Then i started playing on Party Poker.
I thought this is amazing every time i want to play it's there. No more driving ~2 hours one way to go play. Then i moved sties from Party,to Stars then to FTP. I don't think people remember or they weren't around to know how ****ing soft the games were back then.
I went from a $200 deposit to around ~$20k in a month or two single tabling. Funny thing was i didn't even know you could muti table back then lol. My biggest fault by far was BRM. I didn't even know what it meant. That was the problem coming from live to online for me.
If i went to the casino to play 2/5 i would bring 1,000-1,500. I treated online the same way. Say i had 25k in my account my thought was hell let me go play 25/50 an see what happens. What a **** up i was. Even though i have withdrawed way more than i have deposited,i feel i have just gave away so much money in my early years of online poker.
Moral of the story,there is not moral of the story. Just that we learn an get older. Thats a little of JoeBobs poker past.
Thanks for sharing, JB. I always find the stories in poker to be one of the most interesting aspects, and have always found my own to be pretty boring (though I'm still pretty new to the game, and am still waiting on a breakthrough).
Especially enjoy any update into the live-associated threads, so keep 'em coming while mine is undercover 🙂
Especially enjoy any update into the live-associated threads, so keep 'em coming while mine is undercover 🙂
HERO CALLS
A few years ago i posted some stats,for river call eff. Where it seemed i was losing a lot of money ~.80 or so off the top of my head. So the stats showed i was calling far to wide on the river. Which really didn't make since to me because i thought i was playing the exact same way i always have.
I didn't really click in my head to a couple of months ago,playing live. I was IP with Kx. Flop was JJ9. Villain checked,I checked. Turn was a 8,villain checked i bet ~1/2 pot. River was a 9. Villain bet pot,i tanked blah blah hand didn't make since i called. Villain showed 8T i believe or something similar.
The above hand was just one hand out of many hero calls,but it's when the "light bulb clicked" . After the hand i started thinking about how can i play the same type of hands live,vs online an have totally different result. Maybe it is some subconscious tells i'm picking up on that's giving me this "gut instinct", but i doubt it.
I just honestly believe 1/2 live players river ranges are so weighted towards bluffs it's unreal. I mean we all know most players river betting range are for the most part polarized. Yet when it comes to live 1/2 players i still think there polarized just weighted as high as 80/20 bluffs vs nut hands.
Disclaimer i could be way off here,but it sure doesn't feel like it. If i had to guess, which i'm going to any how i would say 20% of my winrate like comes from hero calling on the river. Some due to tells, some due to just normal HA thought, but some to the thought of villain would never V bet two pair here etc.
A few years ago i posted some stats,for river call eff. Where it seemed i was losing a lot of money ~.80 or so off the top of my head. So the stats showed i was calling far to wide on the river. Which really didn't make since to me because i thought i was playing the exact same way i always have.
I didn't really click in my head to a couple of months ago,playing live. I was IP with Kx. Flop was JJ9. Villain checked,I checked. Turn was a 8,villain checked i bet ~1/2 pot. River was a 9. Villain bet pot,i tanked blah blah hand didn't make since i called. Villain showed 8T i believe or something similar.
The above hand was just one hand out of many hero calls,but it's when the "light bulb clicked" . After the hand i started thinking about how can i play the same type of hands live,vs online an have totally different result. Maybe it is some subconscious tells i'm picking up on that's giving me this "gut instinct", but i doubt it.
I just honestly believe 1/2 live players river ranges are so weighted towards bluffs it's unreal. I mean we all know most players river betting range are for the most part polarized. Yet when it comes to live 1/2 players i still think there polarized just weighted as high as 80/20 bluffs vs nut hands.
Disclaimer i could be way off here,but it sure doesn't feel like it. If i had to guess, which i'm going to any how i would say 20% of my winrate like comes from hero calling on the river. Some due to tells, some due to just normal HA thought, but some to the thought of villain would never V bet two pair here etc.
I hear what you're saying, and obviously it's easiest to make hero calls on the river live when people's "bluffs" often make no sense at all (though in your example, villain would have caught 2pair on the river with T8).
I'm not sure it's quite so relevant to say 80:20 for ALL river bets, but certainly in spots similar to your example where the action is so passive until the river (x, x/c, b). And if not many value hands make sense, it's rarely going to be someone being tricky - more often it's a bluff. I also see a lot of b, x, b lines as bluffs from weak players OOP live. If they get floated on the flop when they were bluffing, and then essentially "give up" on the turn, but hero checks behind, they sometimes will assume our passivity as enough weakness to let them bluff again, when in actuality we have a hand good enough to bluff catch.
For example, played this hand a while back:
Blinds $1/$2, I have AJo on the button, and a roughly average, semi-tight, semi-thinking player opens HJ to $8. I flat call and it goes HU to the flop. Flop comes K73r, so I completely wiff. Villain bets $12. "Read" on villain is that he is capable of a bluff here and there but isn't going to be double barreling much, so I call to see what happens on the turn, since I think my A high will be good a lot on such a dry board. Turn is 4x, so nothing really changes about the board, and villain checks. Really looks like he's just giving up as it looks like I have a pair. I should probably just bet here to take it down, but I end up checking behind. River comes 2x, and villain hesitates just a moment before firing $40 (into roughly $40). His bet makes almost no sense. He'd never take this line with a decent Kx that he'd open. Basically his only value hands are turned or rivered sets that cbet the flop. Everything else is pure air. I also felt there was a bit of a bet sizing tell here with him betting so huge - my range looks fairly weak, like weak Kx and perhaps lower PPs, so he doesn't expect me to be able to call such a large bet. I call, he shakes his head and says "I've got Q high," so I turn over my AJ and take down the pot.
I think one reason people become more bluff weighted on the river in live games is that people don't realize just how wide they can bet for value. No one except the (very) few good players I've run into bets thin enough for value on the river. People make REALLY thin river bluffs and decidedly -EV bluffs, but people will check TONS of value hands that they could bet for thin value on the river.
I'm not sure it's quite so relevant to say 80:20 for ALL river bets, but certainly in spots similar to your example where the action is so passive until the river (x, x/c, b). And if not many value hands make sense, it's rarely going to be someone being tricky - more often it's a bluff. I also see a lot of b, x, b lines as bluffs from weak players OOP live. If they get floated on the flop when they were bluffing, and then essentially "give up" on the turn, but hero checks behind, they sometimes will assume our passivity as enough weakness to let them bluff again, when in actuality we have a hand good enough to bluff catch.
For example, played this hand a while back:
Blinds $1/$2, I have AJo on the button, and a roughly average, semi-tight, semi-thinking player opens HJ to $8. I flat call and it goes HU to the flop. Flop comes K73r, so I completely wiff. Villain bets $12. "Read" on villain is that he is capable of a bluff here and there but isn't going to be double barreling much, so I call to see what happens on the turn, since I think my A high will be good a lot on such a dry board. Turn is 4x, so nothing really changes about the board, and villain checks. Really looks like he's just giving up as it looks like I have a pair. I should probably just bet here to take it down, but I end up checking behind. River comes 2x, and villain hesitates just a moment before firing $40 (into roughly $40). His bet makes almost no sense. He'd never take this line with a decent Kx that he'd open. Basically his only value hands are turned or rivered sets that cbet the flop. Everything else is pure air. I also felt there was a bit of a bet sizing tell here with him betting so huge - my range looks fairly weak, like weak Kx and perhaps lower PPs, so he doesn't expect me to be able to call such a large bet. I call, he shakes his head and says "I've got Q high," so I turn over my AJ and take down the pot.
I think one reason people become more bluff weighted on the river in live games is that people don't realize just how wide they can bet for value. No one except the (very) few good players I've run into bets thin enough for value on the river. People make REALLY thin river bluffs and decidedly -EV bluffs, but people will check TONS of value hands that they could bet for thin value on the river.
80/20 seems too high. IN my experiences, river bets are just so completely polarized on the river at 1/2, decisions tend to be easier imo. They are either betting the nuts, or nothing. To determine this, you can usually just judge the player and if he feels super aggro or super passive, it's normally that one.
if that makes any sense ^ ^^
if that makes any sense ^ ^^
Joebob’s thoughts on Bovada
1. Anonymous tables. My first problem with this is ummm do we remember a guy named Russ I mean you must completely trust a company to be the sole provider for security issues i.e. super using, collusion, bots etc. The last time I checked the site isn’t called Poker Stars. You have no idea who you’re playing. This effects HUD’S which I did find out there were some HUD’S, but they are only good for one session at a time. Notes same as the HUD’S, there only good for one session at a time and who feels like wasting their time. Table selection, well there is no such thing.
The upside to anonymous tables that I see is as follows. Some players don’t like everyone to see how much they lose, so this will make them feel free from being ridiculed or bum hunted to the point they quit or feel the need to get better. I believe it helps HU play a lot. No more bum hunting siting out at the lower to mid-levels.
2.
Software. The short answer is it sucks. I dislike the back ground, sound, and pretty much all of it as a whole. Options on the site, lol what options. There is no auto top off feature. I mean realy WTF no auto top off!!!! You can only play 4 tables at once. To be completely fair on this point, since there is no HUD or notes on any villain for most winning players it would be –EV to play more than 4 tables.
3.
Rack back (player points VIP program). There isn’t one. Ok to be honest for every $1-$3 raked in a pot you receive 1 point. You can exchange certain # of points into tournament tickets. I looked for their $100+9 tourney it was 9,500 points. So if you’re average rake is $2=1 point that is $19,000 in rake paid for a return of $109. I know ROW players right now are saying sweet sign me the **** up.
4.
Fish to reg ratio. This one is a huge plus for Bovada. I do not remember playing on a site this soft in years. I have seen such awesome play, as calling 4bets and C/F flops several time in HU in a very short amount of hands. General play that I’ve seen is fishy as hell.
5.
Cash outs. Now we come to the main reason I choose Bovada. I do not have personal knowledge as to their speed of cash outs, only what I read on the forums etc. Though it seems clear they are way more reliable than any other US facing site.
My overall view on the site as a whole. I think the site is better suited for MTT players. Unless you are a MTT player on a small site and start out with a few players with the same skill level as you. It’s rare that you will get enough data on the same players to build a reliable sample for them anyway.
I believe that the anonymous tables probably give me a slight advantage over any other micro- small limit player. I’m used to playing live, in many different card rooms across the country. I don’t know the regs or the fish I only have a few hands to make assumption that can be very profitable or –EV. That situation seems close to Bovada minus the table talk and tells.
I deposited $300 on the site with the intention of playing 10nl. In 3 short sessions of 10nl HU 1-2 tabling I increased my BR by 50%. The amount of bad play is almost at 2007 level. Is it perfect , no not my any means. If I was a ROW player would I play there as my main room, no not by means.
Could be worse it could be UB or Lock.
I'm sure i left out some points i thought of before i started typing. But hey my mind wonders some times.
1. Anonymous tables. My first problem with this is ummm do we remember a guy named Russ I mean you must completely trust a company to be the sole provider for security issues i.e. super using, collusion, bots etc. The last time I checked the site isn’t called Poker Stars. You have no idea who you’re playing. This effects HUD’S which I did find out there were some HUD’S, but they are only good for one session at a time. Notes same as the HUD’S, there only good for one session at a time and who feels like wasting their time. Table selection, well there is no such thing.
The upside to anonymous tables that I see is as follows. Some players don’t like everyone to see how much they lose, so this will make them feel free from being ridiculed or bum hunted to the point they quit or feel the need to get better. I believe it helps HU play a lot. No more bum hunting siting out at the lower to mid-levels.
2.
Software. The short answer is it sucks. I dislike the back ground, sound, and pretty much all of it as a whole. Options on the site, lol what options. There is no auto top off feature. I mean realy WTF no auto top off!!!! You can only play 4 tables at once. To be completely fair on this point, since there is no HUD or notes on any villain for most winning players it would be –EV to play more than 4 tables.
3.
Rack back (player points VIP program). There isn’t one. Ok to be honest for every $1-$3 raked in a pot you receive 1 point. You can exchange certain # of points into tournament tickets. I looked for their $100+9 tourney it was 9,500 points. So if you’re average rake is $2=1 point that is $19,000 in rake paid for a return of $109. I know ROW players right now are saying sweet sign me the **** up.
4.
Fish to reg ratio. This one is a huge plus for Bovada. I do not remember playing on a site this soft in years. I have seen such awesome play, as calling 4bets and C/F flops several time in HU in a very short amount of hands. General play that I’ve seen is fishy as hell.
5.
Cash outs. Now we come to the main reason I choose Bovada. I do not have personal knowledge as to their speed of cash outs, only what I read on the forums etc. Though it seems clear they are way more reliable than any other US facing site.
My overall view on the site as a whole. I think the site is better suited for MTT players. Unless you are a MTT player on a small site and start out with a few players with the same skill level as you. It’s rare that you will get enough data on the same players to build a reliable sample for them anyway.
I believe that the anonymous tables probably give me a slight advantage over any other micro- small limit player. I’m used to playing live, in many different card rooms across the country. I don’t know the regs or the fish I only have a few hands to make assumption that can be very profitable or –EV. That situation seems close to Bovada minus the table talk and tells.
I deposited $300 on the site with the intention of playing 10nl. In 3 short sessions of 10nl HU 1-2 tabling I increased my BR by 50%. The amount of bad play is almost at 2007 level. Is it perfect , no not my any means. If I was a ROW player would I play there as my main room, no not by means.
Could be worse it could be UB or Lock.
I'm sure i left out some points i thought of before i started typing. But hey my mind wonders some times.
How to get HH off of Bovada.
Posting this in my thread so i don't have to look for it again.
Also note to self. He said it could take a few hours before you see them.
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/poker-rooms-10/bovada-hand-history-223481/post-2094549.html
Posting this in my thread so i don't have to look for it again.
Also note to self. He said it could take a few hours before you see them.
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/poker-rooms-10/bovada-hand-history-223481/post-2094549.html
Since you're playing on Bovada you really need to check out John A's software for HH conversion. Since it also lets you see ALL of your opponents cards.
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/pok...ovada-hand-history-converter-software-218045/
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/pok...ovada-hand-history-converter-software-218045/
Your thoughts on this. Do you think there smart enough to write this in so the 2+2 sloths can make sure there isn't "a super user" of some sort. Or merely a retard with control of the programing, who doesn't know wtf he/she is doing?
I agree there is no upside unless,,,, your playing higher limits. Where the player pool is limited. If you could pick up on any betting patterns. Then you could get a 100% range on the villain. Which doesn't sound right.
I agree there is no upside unless,,,, your playing higher limits. Where the player pool is limited. If you could pick up on any betting patterns. Then you could get a 100% range on the villain. Which doesn't sound right.
Yeah first 5 days mostly playing 1 table ~2 hours a day +35bi's lolScourrge said:
Yeah i know, but i did. had a guy that would call 11bb's every hand in the bb. He drawed the line at 12bb's though i mean, come on 12bb's is crazy right?xdeuceswild81xx said:
Well yeah, you have to be running somewhat hot to make that many bi's in that short amount on hands. It seemed i was winning a large percentage of my 80/20's, and my 70/30's. That said there is only a couple of players that i've played that are decent. Most are terribad, or have serious tilt issues.
