Live Grind: How to Not Fall Asleep at the Table

Aleksei · Apr 15, 2013

Scourrge said:
Maybe you could comment on the hands from today instead of from almost 2 weeks ago? It was agreed all around that raising flop was best I believe.

Sorry.

Matt Vaughan · Apr 15, 2013

Cafeman31 said:
Both hands are probably fine, you're just running into it by the looks of things.

It just sucks big time because of how unknown they were. And I have decent reason now to believe that I was good in hand 1. But against unknowns live it's just like *throw-up-in-mouth-and-try-not-to-spit-it-on-the-table* cause live players on average just aren't doing that stuff without the nuts.

Aleksei said:
Sorry.

Not a problem at all, just would love any opinions on the more current stuff

JOEBOB69 · Apr 15, 2013

Hand 1
In my experience strong hands won't stare you down. Unless you have seen this at showdown to prove other wise.
Hand 2 ehh
Boats,flushes,trips are all in villains range. The only hand you beat is some sort of combo draw with Kc,Ac etc.
Prob a fold

ScottishMatt · Apr 15, 2013

On that last hand you posted. Still feel like a fold was good. His actual hand was one of the few ones that you can beat. I reckon he has you way more than you have him here.

xdeucesx · Apr 15, 2013

Feels like a big draw, aq with nut club or something like qj, q9 with club

Plus him staring you down is super weak. In game, I can see a fold bc it looks like we're drawing thin, but I don't think he has a ton of flushes in his range. Maybe some small ones, but with board pairing I don't think flush loves to GII here.

On mobile so spoiler wing show up? But when I get home ill check results

Also, inb4 he has flush lol

Matt Vaughan · Apr 15, 2013

JOEBOB69 said:
Hand 1
In my experience strong hands won't stare you down. Unless you have seen this at showdown to prove other wise.
Hand 2 ehh
Boats,flushes,trips are all in villains range. The only hand you beat is some sort of combo draw with Kc,Ac etc.
Prob a fold

I know the stare down read but the problem is that I have seen people do the opposite as well, or deliberately do it. And like I said I had no reads on what it could mean so didn't want to base what would essentially be hero call on that.

Hand 2, I felt very comfortable with my fold until I saw the result obv, but I think it's one of the very, very few combos that we beat.

ScottishMatt said:
On that last hand you posted. Still feel like a fold was good. His actual hand was one of the few ones that you can beat. I reckon he has you way more than you have him here.

Agreed.

xdeuceswild81xx said:
Feels like a big draw, aq with nut club or something like qj, q9 with club

Plus him staring you down is super weak. In game, I can see a fold bc it looks like we're drawing thin, but I don't think he has a ton of flushes in his range. Maybe some small ones, but with board pairing I don't think flush loves to GII here.

On mobile so spoiler wing show up? But when I get home ill check results

Also, inb4 he has flush lol

Not sure if you're talking about both hands or just one??? There were 2 there lol.

xdeucesx · Apr 15, 2013

I was talking about the hand w/AA when board came Q464 ccc

xdeucesx · Apr 15, 2013

just realized i combined my assessment wow lol nvm

I still think in the AA hand, he can have some AQ, KQ, QJ, Q10, Q9 with a club + some big draws like 57cc & some KK with K of clubs.

I don't think he has a big range here, I think it's weighted towards Qx with club and baby flushes. A FH/trips doesn't shove (imo)

Jillychemung · Apr 15, 2013

Hand 1 - I'd probably call expecting villain to have AQ, KQ, QJ - I just don't see many diamond hands that the villain would be calling the flop with here. Also villain would have so very few boat combos and I can't see villain playing most of them.

Hand 2 - I think I'd give up on that turn and check/fold here. If I got to see the river I'd probably check/call a non-club for a reasonable price.

Matt Vaughan · Apr 15, 2013

xdeuceswild81xx said:
just realized i combined my assessment wow lol nvm

I still think in the AA hand, he can have some AQ, KQ, QJ, Q10, Q9 with a club + some big draws like 57cc & some KK with K of clubs.

I don't think he has a big range here, I think it's weighted towards Qx with club and baby flushes. A FH/trips doesn't shove (imo)

Well if he has 2 clubs in his hadn that's already a flush OTT in the AA hand. And it's unlikely he only flats KK preflop in that spot. Plus don't you think shoving QxJc is pretty thin there for value?

Jillychemung said:
Hand 1 - I'd probably call expecting villain to have AQ, KQ, QJ - I just don't see many diamond hands that the villain would be calling the flop with here. Also villain would have so very few boat combos and I can't see villain playing most of them.

Hand 2 - I think I'd give up on that turn and check/fold here. If I got to see the river I'd probably check/call a non-club for a reasonable price.

Hand 1. I'm more worried about trip combos than boat combos, but seriously, why would villain ever donk the river for nearly pot after x/c two streets with TP?? That line makes no sense. He either has trips/straight/flush here or nothing imo. A very possible hand imo would be something like 98dd that had 2nd pair otf and picked up a flush draw ott.

Hand 2. You're x/f the turn? That seems pretty exploitable given he can have tons of worse hands here and relatively few that are better than us. Basically says "please bluff me off my hand" too. I doubt we ever get a free turn here when he calls the flop. He either thinks he has the best hand when we check back, or he bluffs all his floats when we show weakness on the turn.

xdeucesx · Apr 15, 2013

No I think he has Qx w/a club , not two clubs. I think he could have some baby clubs, but this is like AQ w/A of clubs like all the time imo

Jillychemung · Apr 15, 2013

Jillychemung said:
Hand 1 - I'd probably call expecting villain to have AQ, KQ, QJ - I just don't see many diamond hands that the villain would be calling the flop with here. Also villain would have so very few boat combos and I can't see villain playing most of them.

Scourrge said:
Hand 1. I'm more worried about trip combos than boat combos, but seriously, why would villain ever donk the river for nearly pot after x/c two streets with TP??

What 3x combos would the villain really have here???
The Q & T remove so many other limping combos from villain's range for a flush draw.
I have seen many times that donks would bet this for pot on the river trying to rep the flush/boat or believing they have a read that you only have a underpair.

Jillychemung · Apr 15, 2013

Jillychemung said:
Hand 2 - I think I'd give up on that turn and check/fold here. If I got to see the river I'd probably check/call a non-club for a reasonable price.

Scourrge said:
Hand 2. You're x/f the turn? That seems pretty exploitable given he can have tons of worse hands here and relatively few that are better than us. Basically says "please bluff me off my hand" too. I doubt we ever get a free turn here when he calls the flop. He either thinks he has the best hand when we check back, or he bluffs all his floats when we show weakness on the turn.

Your turn bet size also signaled weakness, less than 1/2 pot that leaves you enough behind to feel OK about bet/fold. How many times do you really think you'll be in this kind of spot against this villain, I'd dare to say not many and it would have to be over multiple sessions before it became exploitable. Also his quick flop call can signal that he is excited about hitting top pair and is happy to have you do the betting for him as he's putting you on AK.

Matt Vaughan · Apr 16, 2013

xdeuceswild81xx said:
No I think he has Qx w/a club , not two clubs. I think he could have some baby clubs, but this is like AQ w/A of clubs like all the time imo

One of the hands you said was 57cc? That's what I was responding to. Also interesting how it becomes so sure once you're able to view spoiler

But yah I hear you. Maybe I'm just trying to find big folds lately since I've been running so bad.

Jillychemung said:
What 3x combos would the villain really have here???
The Q & T remove so many other limping combos from villain's range for a flush draw.
I have seen many times that donks would bet this for pot on the river trying to rep the flush/boat or believing they have a read that you only have a underpair.

I hear you, but also, it's 1/2 and I'm against an unknown. Which means here is what we know about whether or not villain limp-calls 3x and continues to the river:
- Nothing

Jillychemung said:
Your turn bet size also signaled weakness, less than 1/2 pot that leaves you enough behind to feel OK about bet/fold. How many times do you really think you'll be in this kind of spot against this villain, I'd dare to say not many and it would have to be over multiple sessions before it became exploitable. Also his quick flop call can signal that he is excited about hitting top pair and is happy to have you do the betting for him as he's putting you on AK.

I left myself 100ish behind - any larger bet sizing just makes awkward river sizing?? I didn't feel betting a little under half is that weak, and I also have noticed that many live players seem to look at the absolute sizes of bets rather than the fraction of the pot.

Being exploitable isn't about how many times I'll play against him really. As I said it's about the fact that his whole range can bet there. Maybe I don't mean exploitable, just -EV in general? Qx thinks it's good when I check and will bet for value. His floats will bluff the turn when I check. Which means x/f is only good in the sense that I don't lose more against his (relatively few) monsters. But at the time I felt that he would call again with Qx, so it seems to me that b/f makes much more sense than x/f. Perhaps b/c is best, but to me x/f is just throwing money away.

Cafeman · Apr 16, 2013

I also put villain on AcQx 100%. Then* I saw your spoiler and was like

I mean, what a nit fold, he's always got AcQx in this spot, you should have called man.

Matt Vaughan · Apr 16, 2013

Scourrge said:
Maybe I'm just trying to find big folds lately since I've been running so bad.

Probably this

Matt Vaughan · Apr 16, 2013

In last night's session, I went -1 BI ($200). Most relevant hands:
- Flop bottom two in a single raised pot. Get it all in against bottom OESD (offsuit connectors OOP) and he catches on the river (Profit = -$120, EV = $75)

- Flop a flush 6 way in a single raised pot, check and call all in of another player (I was last to act after the shove), his set boats up (Profit = -$65, EV = $65)

- In a straddled pot, folded to me and I make it 20 with KTs from the CO and SB shoves for 15 more on top andI snap call. Board is 4222Q and he has Q8o (Profit = -$35, EV = $35)

- Flopped broadway straight in a 3way pot, got all in against one player with top two for about $160 and held (Profit = $200, EV = $150)

- Pocket jacks 3way on a Q43 board. Q on the turn and I bet and get check-raised. Fold and he lets me see one card - I pick a Q (Profit = -$45)

I made one crying call on a river for $50, and there were a few spots where I made thin bluff cbets and people woke up with hands and so lost my preflop raise + flop cbet, but otherwise not much happened aside from bleeding. The profit and EV stuff above is the approximate profit on the whole hand, and the approximate EV of my decision when going or calling all in (hand against hand, not hand against range, but still useful to look at imo).

xdeucesx · Apr 16, 2013

I still haven't looked at the spoiler fyi....but i'm guessing he has AQ?

edit: nvm, I see the posts itt. I think your finding to many hero folds at 1/2 and giving villains far too much credit. In that spot, he's not jamming too many flushes, maybe some baby flushes, but that's it. Hés never ever ever going to jam a big flush, bc why would he? He has teh best hand and wants calls. He's also never jamming a FH. His shove looks like a big draw like every time. I know ranges can be wide, but at 1/2 live, I think ranges can be as narrow as like 3 or 4 hands most of the time...bc everyone is lolbad, nobody is playing creative and nobody is thinking beyond level 0/1

Cafeman · Apr 16, 2013

If I'm villain and I have a FH or a flush there I'm shipping, cos TP/overpairs aren't folding (usually).

BTW, villain had the flush, so Scourrge made a good lay down - no need to look at the spoiler.

baudib1 · Apr 16, 2013

Scourrge said:
- Pocket jacks 3way on a Q43 board. Q on the turn and I bet and get check-raised. Fold and he lets me see one card - I pick a Q (Profit = -$45)

Just fold face up and tell him that if he's going to play that bad you don't need to see his cards.

xdeucesx · Apr 16, 2013

Cafeman31 said:
If I'm villain and I have a FH or a flush there I'm shipping, cos TP/overpairs aren't folding (usually).

BTW, villain had the flush, so Scourrge made a good lay down - no need to look at the spoiler.

No offense Cafe, but have you played live 1/2 much? The standard play is to just call to river with big hands and show no aggression whatsoever bc " they cud fold and i want dem to call" thinking.

and come on, you can't troll me like that. One results doesn't make a good laydown or not

xdeucesx · Apr 16, 2013

baudib1 said:
Just fold face up and tell him that if he's going to play that bad you don't need to see his cards.

Don't ever do this ^ lol

Cafeman · Apr 16, 2013

Cafeman · Apr 16, 2013

xdeuceswild81xx said:
No offense Cafe, but have you played live 1/2 much? The standard play is to just call to river with big hands and show no aggression whatsoever bc " they cud fold and i want dem to call" thinking.

and come on, you can't troll me like that. One results doesn't make a good laydown or not

hehe, sorry for being a dick

But yeah I know what it's like to play against passive/trappy players. Never played any live though... YET!

xdeucesx · Apr 16, 2013

Cafeman31 said:
hehe, sorry for being a dick

But yeah I know what it's like to play against passive/trappy players. Never played any live though... YET!

you should go play. I'm terrible and I'm managing to crush live. It's a gold mine, the only problem is " the long run" could be like 200 hours of play lol...since your getting like 40 hands/hr

Live Grind: How to Not Fall Asleep at the Table

Aleksei

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Matt Vaughan

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JOEBOB69

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ScottishMatt

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xdeucesx

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Matt Vaughan

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xdeucesx

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xdeucesx

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Jillychemung

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Matt Vaughan

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xdeucesx

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Jillychemung

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Jillychemung

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Matt Vaughan

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Cafeman

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xdeucesx

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Cafeman

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