Micro FR Group: Isolating Limpers

  • Thread starter Thread starter orangepeeleo
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It's real good for your game FX to think about different things like this.Playing KK for set value is not one of them though.If your playing it because you have 2 or 3 50\40\5 behind you limp raiseing for value is fine.If every one smoothed and the flop came out J94 an the lag villain bet out 1\2 pot what would you do?
Edit:reason it sounded like a brag.
 
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So what's your WR for hands where you raise preflop limpers???

At 100nl mine is 74BB/100.

PT3 - Filters > Actions > Select Behind limpers and Any Raise

I have no idea in HEM for this one.

Graph for all my FR hands in this situation. Remember this the next time someone limps in front of you. ♥

Luv limpers
 
WVHillbilly said:
So what's your WR for hands where you raise preflop limpers???

At 100nl mine is 74BB/100.

PT3 - Filters > Actions > Select Behind limpers and Any Raise

I have no idea in HEM for this one.

Graph for all my FR hands in this situation. Remember this the next time someone limps in front of you. ♥

View attachment 36169


so what's your raise sizing?
 
-Phil Ivey27 said:
so you always just press pot?
Not always but that is my current default raise size. I used to raise 4x+1, then went to 3x+1, and now 3.5x+1. Now if it's a special kind of limper, I'm certainly not above making it 6x or more with hands that will play well postflop.
 
WVHillbilly said:
Not always but that is my current default raise size. I used to raise 4x+1, then went to 3x+1, and now 3.5x+1. Now if it's a special kind of limper, I'm certainly not above making it 6x or more with hands that will play well postflop.

so are you pretty much raising limpers with ATC? How many limpers need to be in for you to pop?
 
fx20736 said:
so are you pretty much raising limpers with ATC? How many limpers need to be in for you to pop?
Whats wrong with my example for this.Is one that is juicy and plump not good enough?
 
Haha that is golden, 13k from isolating limpers, inspiration ITT. Everytime i miss out on isolating a limper in the future, i will punch myself in the balls.

And Fx, have you read the COTW on isolating limpers by kurt from 2+2? that pretty much explains when and why we should be isolating them and is a v.good read.

Edit: Joebob nothing wrong with your example, actually its a perfect example of what always happens at microstakes, but did you make 13k from it? haha
 
So I did this filter and found that almost all my profit still comes from hands Id never fold or limp along with. I very rarely just limp along anyways and usually decide if I should raise or fold it.

So I took out all value hands that Id never even think twice about raising almost all limpers. ATo+,ATs+,KQo+,KQs+,KJs and 77+. Without these hands Im a very small winner. Is this normal? What do everyone else's stats look like here?
 
No actualy much more.
Edit:Reason because it still sounds like a brag
 
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fx20736 said:
so are you pretty much raising limpers with ATC? How many limpers need to be in for you to pop?
In general I open my range by a position or 2 depending on who is left to act behind me and just how bad the limper actually is.
 
brank said:
So I did this filter and found that almost all my profit still comes from hands Id never fold or limp along with. I very rarely just limp along anyways and usually decide if I should raise or fold it.

So I took out all value hands that Id never even think twice about raising almost all limpers. ATo+,ATs+,KQo+,KQs+,KJs and 77+. Without these hands Im a very small winner. Is this normal? What do everyone else's stats look like here?

This is true. Taking out those hands puts me at 22BB/100. BUT the real value of isolation is not in doing it with ATC it's that it makes more money with your value hands. Look at your hands like AJs raising behind limpers vs open raising. For me AJs wins at 50BB/100 when I open it with no limpers and at 73BB/100 when I iso a limper(s). Huge difference.
 
Dammit I tried to edit my none sense bull before it could get "Ed.Any way I still think you can do very good iso 1weak player in a hand.Aslong as the stats back up the play.I belive WV has a more than valid point about cbeting flops,if villain folds~80%of flops half pot size bets should be plenty to take it down.
 
Ok couple of things one i thought this was about iso limpers ip\oop\cbeting\vs1\2 players.Second where is all the people that said they would be in the discussion?There a few that are chiming in but not as many as said they would be,,, kind of disappointing.
 
Yeah, I havent been involved as much as i'd hoped, i generally dont have a huge amount of time anyway tbh and now with the stake i'm gonna be spending most of my time hitting the 1k hands per day I need, bar one day during the week which has been put aside for time with the wife!
 
Yeah, ill have poker back tonight but ive been trying to stay as involved as i can the last few days without actually having pokertracker or anything, is a lot less people being active than expected mind.. anyways its early days and as we know everyone has different time commitments, im sure more will participate but if not i guess there will only be a select few in the study group :/ Are we still feeling Sweats/etc in the future? I know ill probably be trying to get 1k hands a day in at 10NL also so im sure i will encounter enough situations for discussion/questionning also

How do you feel the way forward is orange?
 
I haven't read the 2p2 thread yet so I may be repeating some of what is in there but I thought it may help my own game if I was to go through some other resources and write down what I learn about isolating...


Firstly we need to ensure we are isolating the right type of villain. As soon as most people limp we can instantly put identify them as a weak player although occasionally regs and stronger players will limp so we should make sure that we have a little info on villains pre and post flop tendencies before isolating them with a wide range. Against unknowns it is generally safer to keep a range that will play post flop.When we do have info that our villain is a weak player we can divide these players into two groups, weak tight and weak loose players.


Weak tight players will have vpips of about 15 or less with a large gap between that and their PFR. A large part of their limping range will be small pairs and suited connectors, the sort of hands that either hit monsters or miss the flop.

An example of a weak tights limping range. This is 7% so it could be from a villain playing something like 14/7 or 12/5.

vcvrjs.jpg


Just from looking at this range we can see that he will miss the flop a large percentage of the time and will give up a lot post flop. From this we can set out a plan for our hand, when he limps we isolate the flop comes down, he checks, we c bet and take the pot down.

From this plan we can figure out what size our bets should be when isolating this type of player.Since he will be calling a lot of this range all the time trying to hit his monster we can push our pre flop raise size a bit bigger than normal, maybe 5x or 7xbbs. When he misses the flop and gives up we can make our flop bet smaller, something like half pot. By betting big pre flop and small post flop we are exploiting this players tendencies as much as possible and making as much as we can off them.

When it comes to hand selection it shouldn't really matter. Unless we flop the nuts (or very close to it) we should be folding the flop when we get raised all of the time, even if we had isolated with AA or KK. The only thing we need to think about is the players left to act behind us and how our hand will play if we get called by another player and end up in a multiway pot.


Weak loose need a different strategy to play against as they have a different mindset than the weak tight player along with a completely different range. Rather than just seeing a flop and folding everything except their monsters they will love to call your c bet with their draws, second pairs, and Ace high hands.

These players typically look like 30/5 or 54/8. They will have very high vpips but their PFR will be around 10 or lower.

An example of a 30% range for a weak loose player. This would be from someone playing 37/7.

al16y9.jpg


Against these players we should be looking to isolate with a range of hands that will play well against this range, maybe something like 77+ and any two broadway cards. This sets us up to hit top pair good kicker often which is great when he is going to call our bets with top pair shit kicker or second pair. This range can be changed a lot, depending on just how loose the villain is. If they are playing 84/5 we can feel comfortable playing hands like Kx and Qx and picking up pots with top pairs.

We should be aiming to build small to medium sized pots against these players as we will be playing with weaker hands and taking them to showdown more often. Pre flop we want to be sticking to 3.5 - 4.5xbb so that if we get a c bet and one more street of value we will be setting up a pot of around 40bbs. This also gives us more flexibility and lets us get away cheaply when we completely miss the board.

The last thing to consider against these players is position. When we will often be playing post flop position is even more important than normal.


When we isolate multiple villains we need to be ensuring that we do it with a fairly strong range. We will often get two or more callers and will then have a harder time playing post flop. When in position we can always consider limping behind multiple limpers with hands that have good implied odds. Something like A2s, 78s or small pairs can flop big hands in multiway pots which have great implied odds for us.


Lastly
we should always be looking to see who is left to act before we isolate anyone. If there is another loose player who is likely to call our raise or an aggressive reg who will notice you isolating the weak player we really need to think twice about isolating and maybe shrink our range a bit to cover this. This is where table selection is great, we should be making sure the fish are on our right, the regs are across the table and the nits are to our left. This is not always the case though so just make sure you check before you go isolating that weak limper.
 
One thing though, against a 30/5 type like you have shown above, I would bet more than two broadways for value there, like you say later against a 80/5 you would add Kx Qx hands, but I would argue for adding these against the 30/5 too, if you iso with K9s say and villain calls with Q/J/T-9 you'll get 2 streets of value there for sure imo.

Not to take away from a great post but I think your missing value by not iso-ing a 30/5 with Kx Qx hands, both equity wise against their pf range and with the obv chance to take down a lot of flops with a cbet anyways.
 
I would like to hear what yall think on stack size of the fish we are trying to iso.For example we have a 55\8\3 limps utg+1 with 20-40bb were in the CO should our range tighten up,losen up,or stay the same.What if the fish donk bets alot also how do we handle this.
 
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