Micro FR Study Group

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WVHillbilly said:
A common mistake I see when a lot when people post hhs for HA is sitting with several short stacked players. Even bad short stackers aren't worth that much and a couple shortys at a FR table kill it imo. Even 1 shorty on my right and I'm gone unless the guy to his right is a full stacked drooler.
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Yeah, with shorties you pretty much have to cut your range in half. No suited connectors, no small pp etc. (Has anyone used some sort of SAGE against a shortstacker?)

As per table refinement, I have set up PT to show the average VPIP/PFR/AFq for the whole table. This way I can quickly see if it's a good table as a whole. Of course that's just the first thing I consider. If there are loose players to my left, I leave. If there is a shortie, I usually leave. If there is a big fish I stay no matter where he is (6-max). And, if the table is not profitable in the greater sense (e.g., there aren't any players I can exploit and is full of TAGs), I usually leave.
 
Right im searching for tables now, what do we classify as a shortstacker cause every table im looking at has a few 4 dollar stacks and at best some 6 dollar stacks, is 60bb's classed as short stacking? Can i play in these tables?

Edit: the only ones im finding with like 1 60bb stack on are with a players per flop at like <20% is this fine to join and better than a 35% seeing flop with 3 or so short stackers?
 
If I'm not too late to add to the 3-bet discussion...

I play 6-max and 3-bet 7%.

Value (according to WV model) 3-bets profit : 342 BB/100 (pwn you all with them 😎)
Light 3-bets profit : a whooping 4 BB/100 lol

My ratia is of course geared towards the light variant, light:value = 1.56:1

Should I cut down on the light 3-betting, or maybe keep it like this, good for the metagame, regs do use huds etc.

This is over about 80k hands btw.
 
ComplexPlaya said:
If I'm not too late to add to the 3-bet discussion...

I play 6-max and 3-bet 7%.

Value (according to WV model) 3-bets profit : 342 BB/100 (pwn you all with them 😎)
Light 3-bets profit : a whooping 4 BB/100 lol

My ratia is of course geared towards the light variant, light:value = 1.56:1

Should I cut down on the light 3-betting, or maybe keep it like this, good for the metagame, regs do use huds etc.

This is over about 80k hands btw.
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whats it like IP and OOP?
 
Stu_Ungar said:
whats it like IP and OOP?
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Wow, just wow. OOP I'm winning at 52 BB/100, IP I'm losing at -143BB/100. Guess most my light 3-bets are OOP obv, like 3:1 to IP ones.

Only 251 for IP light 3-bets tho, so could be variance, I will look into it tho.

HeadAssploded anyway

Exploding-head.gif
 
ComplexPlaya said:
If I'm not too late to add to the 3-bet discussion...

I play 6-max and 3-bet 7%.

Value (according to WV model) 3-bets profit : 342 BB/100 (pwn you all with them 😎)
Light 3-bets profit : a whooping 4 BB/100 lol

My ratia is of course geared towards the light variant, light:value = 1.56:1

Should I cut down on the light 3-betting, or maybe keep it like this, good for the metagame, regs do use huds etc.

This is over about 80k hands btw.
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I am totally ready for a serious 3betting discussion as it applies to Full Ring Micro Stakes.

Standard commentary is that you 3bet for value or as a bluff.

But what do we really mean by value? Does that mean by 3betting we think we can achieve a higher EV than if we just call? Do we hope for worse hands to call or do we want ranges worse than our hand to fold? Or both. Do we not 3bet a hand because we never get called by worse or do we 3bet semi/bluff because the profit we make from making villains fold exceeds the amount when we get called and lose?

In a way it seems to me that when we 3bet a TAG or Nit we want a fold because we probably don't get called by worse, hence 3bet bluffing is probably a good idea but flatting with Medium Pocket Pairs (JJ TT 99) and some Aces AQ AJ seems better.

With a loose bad player it seems that we want a call, so 3bet/bluffing seems like a bad idea. We want to 3bet hands that are ahead of hands they might call with. So 3 betting 99 or AJs would seem like a good idea. It also seems that here we would be better flatting the top of our range as we don't want villain folding when we have AA/KK/QQ/AK if they will stack off with worse.

How does position affect our 3betting ranges, especially from the button and the blinds? My feeling is that when OOP we should 3bet hands we would call with when IP. We can't profitably call with JJ/TT when OOP but we don't want to fold so we 3bet.

I'm sure this is all been said a hundred times before but in the context of this group it might be good to get everyone involved.
 
I think 3 betting is that same whether its 6max or FR. Like you said, we're either trying to get worse hands to call or better hands to fold.

I think we can call 99-JJ OOP, ie. from the blinds, when were vs a player who has a weak range such as a LP opener or a guy with a high PFR(over a decent sample of course). In 6 max you dont have the super nitty 3 EPs so you can pretty much always play these hands for a raise. Actually in 6 max JJ is almost an auto 3 bet because ranges are wider almost always.

The one part I struggle with the most is having AT-AQ, KJs, KQ and 66-88 in the blinds vs a LP opener. I hate flatting OOP but I also hate playing these OOP without innitiative. When we hit with them we rarely win a nice sized pot because extracting value OOP is really hard and we miss we basically have to c/f or c/c one street and see what villain will do. Its obviously a very villain dependent situation but is deff one of the parts of my game I need to work on.
 
brank said:
The one part I struggle with the most is having AT-AQ, KJs, KQ and 66-88 in the blinds vs a LP opener.
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The struggle is because you shouldn't play these hands OOP vs a raise. The exception is I will call a raise OOP with sm pp's from the blinds if it is multi-way and my call closes the preflop action. AT especially should be autofold from the blinds. I do sometimes 3bet AQ, even OOP but it has to be against someone with a very weak range. Unless I was having a Manchurian Candidate moment I wouldn't dream of 3betting KQ/KJ.
 
Yeah ive thought long and hard about 3 betting since my move to 10NL, i will have to check how its been working for me in pt but only played around 6k hands so far.

Im still debating whether or not its being too fancy to worry about so much atm, i am 3betting but not too often and aiming for the guys with a 80% + fold to 3bet, and im doing this with semi bluffs and semi bluffs with blockers.

Am i right in thinking the more likely they are to call the 3bet the higher we make our value 3 bets like we could add JJ, and AQ's? and add more semi bluffs when they fold a lot or we have position?

be good to get a discussion going on whats the optimal 3betting game for microstakes

Edit: Also i am going to stop auto 4 betting AA and KK against some of the regs, only sometimes though...
 
Flatting those hands even OOP is highly profitable because the guys opening in LP are generally going to be willing to put in a decent amount of $$s with worse TP hands when you both hit.
 
acky100 said:
Yeah ive thought long and hard about 3 betting since my move to 10NL, i will have to check how its been working for me in pt but only played around 6k hands so far.

Im still debating whether or not its being too fancy to worry about so much atm, i am 3betting but not too often and aiming for the guys with a 80% + fold to 3bet, and im doing this with semi bluffs and semi bluffs with blockers.

Am i right in thinking the more likely they are to call the 3bet the higher we make our value 3 bets like we could add JJ, and AQ's? and add more semi bluffs when they fold a lot or we have position?

be good to get a discussion going on whats the optimal 3betting game for microstakes

Edit: Also i am going to stop auto 4 betting AA and KK against some of the regs, only sometimes though...
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My winrate when I 3bet at 5nl is: 186 BB/100. That's with an overall 3bet% of 5.27. I went to showdown 41% of the time when I 3bet.

So;

3betting is very profitable.

Since more than half the time hands in 3bet pots end without a showdown I can 3bet/bluff sometimes. If this is successful due to a tight image then 3betting light will eventually get fewer folds and more 4bets.
 
WVHillbilly said:
Flatting those hands even OOP is highly profitable because the guys opening in LP are generally going to be willing to put in a decent amount of $$s with worse TP hands when you both hit.
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Against a very loose/ bad player flatting AJ/KQ might be ok from the blinds but what about TT/99? Since you will almost always see a scare card you either need to donkbet to try and grab the initiative or check/fold to the inevitable c-bet.
 
fx20736 said:
Against a very loose/ bad player flatting AJ/KQ might be ok from the blinds but what about TT/99? Since you will almost always see a scare card you either need to donkbet to try and grab the initiative or check/fold to the inevitable c-bet.
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What's wrong with calling a flop bet on decent boards (one over). Or even calling down against some over aggressive villains.

Check of the db shows that I have flatted 99/TT 383 times from the blinds for a WR of 64BB/100. I have 3bet them 216 times with a WR or 35BB/100.

Villain is a 15/11 winning reg:

Full Tilt - $1 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

Hero (BB): $100.00
UTG: $105.05
UTG+1: $97.90
MP: $145.05
MP+1: $100.00
CO: $101.00
BTN: $98.00
SB: $143.10

SB posts SB $0.50, Hero posts BB $1.00

Pre Flop: ($1.50) Hero has T:club: T:diamond:

fold, fold, MP calls $1.00, fold, CO raises to $4.50, fold, fold, Hero calls $3.50, fold

Flop: ($10.50, 2 players) 7:diamond: 7:spade: 6:spade:
Hero checks, CO bets $7.00, Hero calls $7.00

Turn: ($24.50, 2 players) 9:heart:
Hero checks, CO checks

River: ($24.50, 2 players) J:club:
Hero checks, CO checks

CO shows 5:heart: 5:diamond: (Two Pair, Sevens and Fives) (PreFlop 19%, Flop 11%, Turn 5%)
Hero shows T:club: T:diamond: (Two Pair, Tens and Sevens) (PreFlop 81%, Flop 89%, Turn 95%)
Hero wins $23.30
 
fx20736 said:
My winrate when I 3bet at 5nl is: 186 BB/100. That's with an overall 3bet% of 5.27. I went to showdown 41% of the time when I 3bet.

So;

3betting is very profitable.

Since more than half the time hands in 3bet pots end without a showdown I can 3bet/bluff sometimes. If this is successful due to a tight image then 3betting light will eventually get fewer folds and more 4bets.
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Oh yeah of course its profitable but im wondering like how profitable 3betting our semi bluff hands is and whether this differs much from say the btn and the blinds
 
fx20736 said:
The struggle is because you shouldn't play these hands OOP vs a raise. The exception is I will call a raise OOP with sm pp's from the blinds if it is multi-way and my call closes the preflop action. AT especially should be autofold from the blinds. I do sometimes 3bet AQ, even OOP but it has to be against someone with a very weak range. Unless I was having a Manchurian Candidate moment I wouldn't dream of 3betting KQ/KJ.
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brank said:
The one part I struggle with the most is having AT-AQ, KJs, KQ and 66-88 in the blinds vs a LP opener.
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This is the key point. Vs a LP opener we are way ahead of the range of most villains. So do we 3 bet and get them to fold their weak range or do we try to hit that 1/3 of the time and win small pots.

The thing is I dont try too many bluffs vs people in the micros because its basically unprofitable. If I bluff Im like 80%+ sure it'll work so I dont try to take away pots when I miss flops with these hands.

I am no nit but I have been know to fold AT/AJ, 66/77 in the blinds to some villains before so its not an auto call for me.
 
It always makes me laugh when people say things like, but if we flat TT in the blinds and it comes J75 and he bets what are we going to do?? Erm, call?

I actually feel I'm very solid when it comes to flatting 88-TT (I 3-bet JJ cause it's 6-max ldo) and KQ/AQ sometimes AJ. After you do it enough and play enough flop/turns you get a feel for good spots to continue and how you're going to win the pot. Whether it be calling down or betting a turn/river.
 
So I just filtered these hands(AT-AQ, KJs, KQ, 66-88) and I looks like Im doing ok at least. Breakeven over my last 100k hands but for the most recent 25k Im winning for 42BB/100. Add in 99/TT and my winrate more then doubles to 106BB/100. Still these hands are difficult to play OOP.
 
Full Tilt - $0.05 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

Hero (BB): $5.00
UTG: $6.32
UTG+1: $4.98
MP: $3.43
MP+1: $4.78
LP: $5.00
CO: $5.00
BTN: $2.05
SB: $5.54

SB posts SB $0.02, Hero posts BB $0.05

Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero has A:spade: Q:heart:

fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, CO raises to $0.15, fold, fold, Hero calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.32, 2 players) K:heart: 5:spade: 5:heart:
Hero checks, CO bets $0.15,


Should we be calling here? Is this like WV TT hand where were ahead of his range and are going to be calling most boards to showdown?
 
3 hands on villain only. This is more of a general question really, lets say like the average 15/12 villain
 
We don't have to call most boards to showdown just because we are ahead of his pre flop opening range. If we are going to call we just want to know that we can play the hand profitably post flop. With hands such as AJ or AQ we are only going to hit the flop about 33% of the time. If we can make more in that 33% that we hit than we lose when we miss the other 66% then we don't have to do anything fancy to be making money from this.

Take this theoretical situation

Say we call a raise of 3bbs and check/fold every time we miss. We miss 66% of the time so in 100 hands we lose 66 x 3 = 198bbs.

When we hit we call the raise for 3bbs, call a c bet of 4bbs and get one more street of value for 8bbs (about half pot). This means we make 15bbs every time we hit. We hit 33% of the time so 33 x 15 = 495bbs.

Now we know that we will not always win this and final pot sizes will vary dramatically depending on villain and the situation so I am not telling you to play like this. Just making a point that we don't need to fall victim to fancy play syndrome just because we are calling a raise oop.
 
I just ran PT3 for (5nl Pokerstars) when I raised first in and when I called a preflop raise.

When I raise first in I won $ 132.96
When I called a preflop raise I lost $ 37.43
When I 3bet I won $ 127.03

When I called a raise from the blinds I lost $ 4.18. Overall when I called raises I lost $ 15.23.

Sample size is 50k hands but that's a pretty clear justification for not calling raises IMO.

This piqued my interest so I went back to my 2nl FT db.

Amt won when I 3bet (2nl FT): $ 254.11

When I broke it down by starting hands:

AA: $ 124.11
KK: $ 75.52
QQ: $ 26.37
JJ: $ 30.98
TT: $ 12.78
AKs: $ 3.54
AKo: $ 19.69
Total for these hands: $ 292.99

There were a few other small winners but almost every other hand was a loser. So I know this sounds like I'm stating the obvious but the hands that make the most money when 3betting are the best hands. In fact 80% of the profit from 3betting came from AA/KK.

So 3bet/bluffing might be useful for deception but my takeaway is that I should mainly 3bet for value and not call preflop raises too often.

I think I already knew that.🙂
 
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Hmm, im gonna find how that worked for me at 5NL Fx, i have around 60k hands there. Will get back to you
 
Raise first in - i won $145.63 - BB/100 = 55.14

Facing PF raise call - i won $26.09 BB/100 = 23.91

when i 3 bet - i won $120.24 BB/100 = 309.10

when i called raise from the blinds - won $5.18

This is over 54k hands at 5NL, overall i came out as a 10/7 so pretty similar to your nit style i assume and my steal was 20% also which is now 34 at 10NL big improvement!

But our stats look surprisingly similar except for im showing a profit when calling raises i wonder if this is just variance or maybe you have a little leak when calling raises??
 
acky100 said:
Raise first in - i won $145.63 - BB/100 = 55.14

Facing PF raise call - i won $26.09 BB/100 = 23.91

when i 3 bet - i won $120.24 BB/100 = 309.10

when i called raise from the blinds - won $5.18

This is over 54k hands at 5NL, overall i came out as a 10/7 so pretty similar to your nit style i assume and my steal was 20% also which is now 34 at 10NL big improvement!

But our stats look surprisingly similar except for im showing a profit when calling raises i wonder if this is just variance or maybe you have a little leak when calling raises??
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Over 50k hands there isn't a huge difference in your results when calling a raise from the blinds. It might be variance but maybe I also have a harder time getting away from a hand when I miss?

As far as calling a raise from the other positions. I ran pocket pairs 22-99 when I called a preflop raise.

overall results: won $ 7.56

When I flopped a set I won $ 52.20
When I flopped a single pair I lost $ 39.99
When I flopped a single pair and folded to a c-bet I lost 23.48.

So if I had simply set mined and check/folded when I had missed I would have won $ 7.56 + 16.51 = $ 24.07.

over the whole sample c/fing when I set mined and missed would have added .285 BB/100 to my overall win rate.
 
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