Micro FR Study Group

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wrung24 said:
Yes sir, sounds scary doesn't it ?
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Not to me. I suppose the truth is if your skill level is that much better than your opponents you could play 32o from UTG. If you can play 22+ AJ+ profitably from UTG go ahead.

I fold 22-88 from UTG because I lose money with them from this position. 99 is break even so I fold those too. That keeps things simple as my UTG range is exactly the same as my 3bet range, although I sometimes 3bet AQs and I sometimes flat AQs (villain dependent) and I occasionally 3bet AQo or perhaps AJs even though those two hands aren't even in my EP range. Sometimes when a table is soft I will add 99 AJs AQo KQs to my EP range.

May I suggest that you check your results for these hands by position? If you are losing with some of them you might want to drop these from your range until you can figure out a profitable way to play them.
 
fx20736 said:
Not to me. I suppose the truth is if your skill level is that much better than your opponents you could play 32o from UTG. If you can play 22+ AJ+ profitably from UTG go ahead.

I fold 22-88 from UTG because I lose money with them from this position. 99 is break even so I fold those too. That keeps things simple as my UTG range is exactly the same as my 3bet range, although I sometimes 3bet AQs and I sometimes flat AQs (villain dependent) and I occasionally 3bet AQo or perhaps AJs even though those two hands aren't even in my EP range. Sometimes when a table is soft I will add 99 AJs AQo KQs to my EP range.

May I suggest that you check your results for these hands by position? If you are losing with some of them you might want to drop these from your range until you can figure out a profitable way to play them.
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You do realize he's playing 6max right? So his UTG is your MP2. Big difference.
 
WVHillbilly said:
You do realize he's playing 6max right? So his UTG is your MP2. Big difference.
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No, my bad. I forget that there even is a format called 6max.

I tried it once, I didn't like it.
 
Exactly the same as my UTG opening range (I play 6-max) except I open ATs most of the time.

Here's a fun question.

Fx (and everyone else) if you're on the BTN UO, what's your range:

A) Against 2 9/8's?
B) A 9/8 and a 15/12
C) 2 15/12's
D) 1 15/12 and a 54/32
E) 2 54/32's
F) 1 54/32 and a 70/2
G) 2 70/2's

Assume 100bb's, FR (so that 15/12 means solid TAG) decent amount of hands on villain (500+).

Hint:

If you say the same, you're doing it wrong
 
LuckyChippy said:
Exactly the same as my UTG opening range (I play 6-max) except I open ATs most of the time.

Here's a fun question.

Fx (and everyone else) if you're on the BTN UO, what's your range:

A) Against 2 9/8's? depends how often ive been exploiting them, most suited connectors, 22+, stuff like 9To, Q8o+ K8o+ any AXs most Axo hands too
B) A 9/8 and a 15/12? Any broadways, A8o maybe K9o, 22+, 89s+
C) 2 15/12's? Same as B really
D) 1 15/12 and a 54/32? Most broadways, maybe not all pairs though? no SC'ers.
E) 2 54/32's? not sure of the right answer for the last 3, id just be opening things that can get a piece of the flop really like broadways.
F) 1 54/32 and a 70/2
G) 2 70/2's

Assume 100bb's, FR (so that 15/12 means solid TAG) decent amount of hands on villain (500+).

Hint:

If you say the same, you're doing it wrong
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I've done this for some criticism incase my thinking is totally wrong so will be good to see others thoughts
 
acky100 said:
I've done this for some criticism incase my thinking is totally wrong so will be good to see others thoughts
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I'll wait for more replies before I give my opinion but I'll defo get back to this.
 
Yeah sounds like the best way to do it! Good job on the idea, will get a good discussion going hopefully.
 
Against the 9/8s you can literally open ATC and you can do it smaller, say 2-2.5x.
 
acky100 said:
Yeah sounds like the best way to do it! Good job on the idea, will get a good discussion going hopefully.
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Yeah I think so too. It's a good point to discuss because it doesn't matter if you play FR or 6-max, it doesn't matter if you play 2nl or 100nl (other than the TAG's might play a bit better post-flop at 100nl) and it's one of the most important concepts in poker. Why are you opening that range against that opponent. What his range and what range do you want to have to play against it and why?

Solid questions.
 
fx20736 said:
Not to me. I suppose the truth is if your skill level is that much better than your opponents you could play 32o from UTG. If you can play 22+ AJ+ profitably from UTG go ahead.

I fold 22-88 from UTG because I lose money with them from this position. 99 is break even so I fold those too. That keeps things simple as my UTG range is exactly the same as my 3bet range, although I sometimes 3bet AQs and I sometimes flat AQs (villain dependent) and I occasionally 3bet AQo or perhaps AJs even though those two hands aren't even in my EP range. Sometimes when a table is soft I will add 99 AJs AQo KQs to my EP range.

May I suggest that you check your results for these hands by position? If you are losing with some of them you might want to drop these from your range until you can figure out a profitable way to play them.
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Yeah i play 6 max sorry if that wasnt clear.

UTG my usual range is PP, ATs+, AJo+, KQs. I play some more hands if all the players from MP to BTN are tight and there are fish in the blinds. I'm winning with all of these hands except AKs, KQs, 22 and 44.
 
LuckyChippy said:
Exactly the same as my UTG opening range (I play 6-max) except I open ATs most of the time.

Here's a fun question.

Fx (and everyone else) if you're on the BTN UO, what's your range:

A) Against 2 9/8's? Just about everything except really trashy hands like 84o or 49o
B) A 9/8 and a 15/12 less low connectors and one gappers, less weak broadways
C) 2 15/12's
D) 1 15/12 and a 54/32
E) 2 54/32's
F) 1 54/32 and a 70/2
G) 2 70/2's PPs, A5+, K6+, Q7+, J8+ (guesstimations)

Assume 100bb's, FR (so that 15/12 means solid TAG) decent amount of hands on villain (500+).

Hint:

If you say the same, you're doing it wrong
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Not sure about the ones in between but generally big cards against loose players and pretty SCs and PPs against weak players (+ obviously the good hands)
 
WVHillbilly said:
Against the 9/8s you can literally open ATC and you can do it smaller, say 2-2.5x.
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instead of talking about ranges blah blah blah, how about some results?

It's all cool & all to say, yeah if fx was in the blinds I'd open 84o and all that crap but I want to see results.

please post results for starting hands from the button. Filter out pocket pairs, suited aces and any Broadways except ATo KTo QTo JTo. Then rank from most profitable to least profitable.
 
fx20736 said:
instead of talking about ranges blah blah blah, how about some results?

It's all cool & all to say, yeah if fx was in the blinds I'd open 84o and all that crap but I want to see results.

please post results for starting hands from the button. Filter out pocket pairs, suited aces and any Broadways except ATo KTo QTo JTo. Then rank from most profitable to least profitable.
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Ok. When I open with everything else it is worth 3BB/100.

Top 15 or so winners (in $$s) among these "other" hands.

Btn
 
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Why do you need results to know that opening ATC against a 9/8 is profitable? You could easily increase your edge at 5NL by opening more from the button and sitting next to nits.

These guys are folding to a raise like 90% of the time, why is your button opening range like 17% or something really low, the worst that happens is you get called 10 percent of the time and miss and lose 3bb's.
 
WVHillbilly said:
Ok. When I open with everything else it is worth 3BB/100.

Top 15 or so winners (in $$s) among these "other" hands.

View attachment 36686
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give me your address so I can come and grovel at your feet.

So when you are extacting nice results from a hand like QTo or A5o do you think you are winning because:

  1. you are able to bluff villains out of pots
  2. or you can get away from these hands when you need to
  3. or you are so phenomenally good at table selection that you can find fish who will play Q9o every time you get QTo?
 
It's called playing in position with initiative (or the mere threat of it). It's the single biggest thing you can do to win $$$s. Either the blinds fold and you win 1.5bb or they call and you get to play in position with initiative. It's like printing money and your cards don't really matter.

I've said it many times before but you really need to learn to play poker before you move up to the point where it's going to be expensive.
 
WVHillbilly said:
I've said it many times before but you really need to learn to play poker before you move up to the point where it's going to be expensive.
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Don't expect him to change anytime soon. He has some kind of a comfort zone and really hates leaving it. It's one of his biggest drawbacks as a poker player, IMO. Besides the fact he's the biggest BR nit ever to play the micros, of course.
 
_dogmeat said:
Don't expect him to change anytime soon. He has some kind of a comfort zone and really hates leaving it. It's one of his biggest drawbacks as a poker player, IMO. Besides the fact he's the biggest BR nit ever to play the micros, of course.
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How many BIs does he require to take a shot to the next level ?
 
WVHillbilly said:
It's called playing in position with initiative (or the mere threat of it). It's the single biggest thing you can do to win $$$s. Either the blinds fold and you win 1.5bb or they call and you get to play in position with initiative. It's like printing money and your cards don't really matter.

I've said it many times before but you really need to learn to play poker before you move up to the point where it's going to be expensive.
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_dogmeat said:
Don't expect him to change anytime soon. He has some kind of a comfort zone and really hates leaving it. It's one of his biggest drawbacks as a poker player, IMO. Besides the fact he's the biggest BR nit ever to play the micros, of course.
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you both assume I can only play my cards, not true. I'm going to go back and see if I can figure out exactly why I lose with these hands;
  • is it because I fold too easily?
  • is it because I try to continue past the the flop when my c-bet gets called and I have no hand?
  • Is it because I don't let go of top pair/ weak kicker?
It is not as simple as saying I don't know how to play poker. I know the types of boards to c-bet based on villain type. I have become really good at narrowing villains down to a range of hands. If someone asked me what I perceive as my greatest weakness I would say giving villains too much credit for the best hand but even there it's not like I fold to one bet after the flop if I think my hand has decent equity against his range. And I don't always fold on the river if I think I might be beat. I was in a hand yesterday with KQo, had initiatve and position. Flop came down AJx. Villain (donkey) donk betted. I called. Turn was a King. He checked. I bet he called. River was a Q. Now I wasn't happy to see that Queen, TBH, Any Ten gives him a straight so when he bet I had to think about it for a long time and finally decided that there were way too many Ax/Kx hands in his range so I called. He had K4. Maybe I need to back out the amount paid in blinds with these hands and figure out how I am really doing.

I guess the most exasperating things I deal with on Cardschat (and I love it here) are:
  • The notion that I don't try to get better, that I don't study the game. Nothing could be farther from the truth.
  • and I think more important, the notion that nits aren't really poker players and a generalized contempt for nits. Why is that? If I can win as a Nit but haven't figured out to win consistently as a TAG OR maybe that I would rather steadily grow my bankroll by playing an MTT nit style than subject myself to big variance spikes that somehow I am not really playing Poker. Maybe, WV you could extract way more value from the situations i am in, but I haven't been able to. Do you think I would say, yeah this is a good spot but I'll just fold anyway because I don't like pocketpars that are xdxc?
If one of the keys to being a winner is capitalizing on your opponent's mistakes then I must be doing something right because my bankroll has shown steady, albeit not spectactular growth for 6 months without the benefit of rakeback. What are the biggest mistakes most uNL players make? They don't fold when they should. What is the best way to capitalize on that? By having the best hand at showdown. I win 60% of my showdowns.

Am I comfortable with the stakes and style I play? Sure, but I'm not trying to go pro (at least not in the forseeable future). I am trying to have fun and grow my bankroll so that maybe one day I will be able to do some cashouts.

Dogmeat; if that somehow diminshes this thread and makes it not worth following then I understand. Most players on Cardschat are not pros. They are working people and college kids so I think my thread has benefit to those types of players who enjoy playing but haven't found out how to win consistently or how to manage a bankroll.

I see two roles for fx on Cardschat:

  1. to be the House nit and show the silent minority of nits out there that it is ok to be a nit, that they are not alone.
  2. To provide entertainment and comedy in the Cash Thread, after all Marginal shouldn't just have free rein of that thread!!!!
peace fx

🙂
 
fx20736 said:
I win 60% of my showdowns.
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Ok 1st I don't hate nits. I love nits they fold too often and when they don't I know I'm beat.

Now to the only part of your post that I quoted. 60% W$SD is WAY too high to be optimally winning. What's your WTSD stat? If it's low (under say 20%) you're folding too much. If it's normal or high you're just not value betting often enough on the river.

W$SD is one of those stats that seems like a higher number would be better but actually something close to 50% is going to make you a lot more money than anything higher.
 
WVHillbilly said:
Ok 1st I don't hate nits. I love nits they fold too often and when they don't I know I'm beat.

Now to the only part of your post that I quoted. 60% W$SD is WAY too high to be optimally winning. What's your WTSD stat? If it's low (under say 20%) you're folding too much. If it's normal or high you're just not value betting often enough on the river.

W$SD is one of those stats that seems like a higher number would be better but actually something close to 50% is going to make you a lot more money than anything higher.
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Here are my showdown related stats as of Tuesday. (I'm at work so I don't have the most current but they wouldn't have changed much:


W$WSF: 38.35
WTSD: 29.21
W$SD: 58.97
 
WTSD stat is high (average for that stat is somewhere around 24% for FR players) so your main problem is that you're not value betting the river often enough. The river is the most important street to value bet well because the bets are the largest and one person has all the equity. Use your nittiness to your advantage and value bet the shit out of people on the river because your hands are going to always be better than theirs on average.
 
Also that W$WSF seems really low. Just looked at my db and mine is 47% which makes no sense since you're starting with much better hands on average than me. I'm not sure what a "normal" range is for that stat but I'd guess yours is low and it's likely because you're folding too often.

So it's very likely that you're folding the best hand too often AND not value betting the river thin enough. Lots to work on as you learn how to play poker. 😉
 
WVHillbilly said:
WTSD stat is high (average for that stat is somewhere around 24% for FR players) so your main problem is that you're not value betting the river often enough. The river is the most important street to value bet well because the bets are the largest and one person has all the equity. Use your nittiness to your advantage and value bet the shit out of people on the river because your hands are going to always be better than theirs on average.
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People folding on the river when I value bet tilts the shit out of me cause it's where you make money. I need to move up to where people don't respect my river bets?

Solid advice.


Fx, being a nit is fine at first and I know you're working on your game. It is precisely because you're an intelligent and actively contributing guy that we want you to improve and crush. Being a nit won't do this and some of your views on the game are just so wrong that we're honestly trying everything we can to change them and improve you as player. I hope you see that and I hope you know I don't hate you or hate on you 🙂
 
WVHillbilly said:
I'm not sure what a "normal" range is for that stat but I'd guess yours is low and it's likely because you're folding too often.
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Not sure either what a normal stat is here but mine are :

WTSD: 29.8 which is higher than fx's (gulp)
W$SD: 48.1 (under 50, is that bad ?)
W$WSF: 42.2
 
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