Arjonius said:
Yea, not a squeeze and I misread the OP, I had UTG raising and 4 callers after him, so I reraised in the BB. The suggestion is the same though, reraise heavily PF or expect a difficult multiway hand postflop.
Not sure if serveral callers are any better than several limpers in microstakes. A player setmining or playing a speculative suited connector may still call with a number of people in the action, expecting good implied odds.
I am away from home on a trip so couldn't answer earlier.
In games 25NL and below there are people who limp even up to JJ/AK vs multiple people and they WILL limp/call an 8bb iso raise and screw you royally.
Seriously, I freaking dare the whole forum to show me stats from their database (big samples please) that making a massive iso raise OOP vs multiple people without a premium hand is a good idea.
P.S. I filtered my own 530k hands database (filter: TT in SB, BB with 2+ limpers facing me) from 2NL to 25NL and I have a small sample:
- 54 hands total
Opponent hands that I saw at showdowns (all hands):
- AJs (and several lesser Axs)
- AQo
- QQ, KK (!!!)
- few Kxs hands
- QJo, KJo and similar Broadway offsuit hands
- small pairs (prevalent)
- some SCs and gappers
Once a pot was TT vs. QQ vs. AQ 😀
- I raised 34 times (with 874 bb/100 win rate)
- saw flop OOP a total of 28 times, won 78% of pots (hit 3 sets), had to see a showdown 46% of the time
This is nice but I normally specifically target a mix of big whales with a few limp/fold guys behind (yes I keep that stat on my HUD) so normally I know I am ahead when doing this. I also never faced a limp/3bet trap with TT which I suppose is a bit of a quirk.
- I called 10 times, 336 bb/100 win rate.
- I checked (in BB) 10 times, 205 bb/100 win rate.
So yeah raising is the best but as I said I don't do it randomly and I was a bit hot in those hands.
Summary: The idea that TT is automatically way ahead here is flawed, you will be OOP in an inflated pot and the opponent will likely be sticky. You better be lucky or have good HUD stats on your opponent.
In games 25NL and below there are people who limp even up to JJ/AK vs multiple people and they WILL limp/call an 8bb iso raise and screw you royally.
Seriously, I freaking dare the whole forum to show me stats from their database (big samples please) that making a massive iso raise OOP vs multiple people without a premium hand is a good idea.
P.S. I filtered my own 530k hands database (filter: TT in SB, BB with 2+ limpers facing me) from 2NL to 25NL and I have a small sample:
- 54 hands total
Opponent hands that I saw at showdowns (all hands):
- AJs (and several lesser Axs)
- AQo
- QQ, KK (!!!)
- few Kxs hands
- QJo, KJo and similar Broadway offsuit hands
- small pairs (prevalent)
- some SCs and gappers
Once a pot was TT vs. QQ vs. AQ 😀
- I raised 34 times (with 874 bb/100 win rate)
- saw flop OOP a total of 28 times, won 78% of pots (hit 3 sets), had to see a showdown 46% of the time
This is nice but I normally specifically target a mix of big whales with a few limp/fold guys behind (yes I keep that stat on my HUD) so normally I know I am ahead when doing this. I also never faced a limp/3bet trap with TT which I suppose is a bit of a quirk.
- I called 10 times, 336 bb/100 win rate.
- I checked (in BB) 10 times, 205 bb/100 win rate.
So yeah raising is the best but as I said I don't do it randomly and I was a bit hot in those hands.
Summary: The idea that TT is automatically way ahead here is flawed, you will be OOP in an inflated pot and the opponent will likely be sticky. You better be lucky or have good HUD stats on your opponent.
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Yeah lots of edits. Unlike most people I habitually look into my database to try and see what reality says 🙂 finished with editing now!
Against a lot of hands in these ranges you are only slightly ahead while OOP, which negates this slight advantage. It helps if you run well like I did 😀
I also never got stacked or even damaged by a smaller PP which hit a set which is nice but unsustainable.
Since the situation is very specific other people can post their own hands filtered in the same way I did so we can gradually see what is really going on. Multiple small samples together can compensate for the rarity of the scenario.
Against a lot of hands in these ranges you are only slightly ahead while OOP, which negates this slight advantage. It helps if you run well like I did 😀
I also never got stacked or even damaged by a smaller PP which hit a set which is nice but unsustainable.
Since the situation is very specific other people can post their own hands filtered in the same way I did so we can gradually see what is really going on. Multiple small samples together can compensate for the rarity of the scenario.