Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

What can they have apart from 66, backed into a higher 2 pair or a longshot triple barrel with 57 as nothing else makes sense

poker stars, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $2.01 (100.5 bb)
BB: $5.01 (250.5 bb)
UTG: $2.18 (109 bb)
MP: $2.06 (103 bb)
Hero (CO): $3.82 (191 bb)
BTN: $3.67 (183.5 bb)20/9 AG 45% 45 hands

Preflop: Hero is CO with K 4
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.06, BTN calls $0.06, SB calls $0.05, BB folds

Flop: ($0.20) K 4 6 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.14, BTN raises to $0.44, SB folds, Hero calls $0.30

Turn: ($1.08) A (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $1.04, Hero calls $1.04

River: ($3.16) 9 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $2.13 and is all-in, Hero >????

Figaroo2 said:

Not cbetting picked up an extra bet on the end, but should I always cbet this for protection?
I figured if he had an ace it was likely better than mine so didn't want to bloat the pot.
After his 2nd check on the turn and his call, the best I put him on was a pair and flush draw maybe QQ TT 99 with a spade.
Once he just calls on the turn I think my ace is usually good.
I didn't think there would be much Jx second pair type hands in a 3bet pot.
So what do we think of the river bet sizing here if that's the range I have for him?
I thought maybe it was a little big but I think it made it look like a busted spade draw trying to buy the pot.

Click to expand...

Nh... no you shouldn't always c-bet. In a 3-bet pot in a spot like this, I like the flop check for pot control, even on a monotone board. And you're correct, by doing this you can get looked up by a lot of worse pairs. You of course risk getting sucked out on, but he won't always have a spade and you have position.

The sizing is fine. You want to get a suspicious call from KK/QQ, Jx.

rhombus said:

What can they have apart from 66, backed into a higher 2 pair or a longshot triple barrel with 57 as nothing else makes sense

Click to expand...

Add 64 and the one combo of 44 and you're there, imo.

Fold the turn. If you're calling the turn, I think you should call the river too.

But fold preflop as well, imo.

Blog update I think you guys would benefit from.

How to absorb variance in poker by picking more than your share of those small pots people aren't fight for enough:

http://www.acepokersolutions.com/poker-blog/pokerarticles/absorbing-variance-in-poker/?t=apsblog

John A said:

Nh... no you shouldn't always c-bet. In a 3-bet pot in a spot like this, I like the flop check for pot control, even on a monotone board. And you're correct, by doing this you can get looked up by a lot of worse pairs. You of course risk getting sucked out on, but he won't always have a spade and you have position.

The sizing is fine. You want to get a suspicious call from KK/QQ, Jx.

Click to expand...

Sorry, I meant Kx, not KK obviously.

So how about we focus on some small pots, and I can talk about some more common spots, not just the couple of talked about in the above blog?

I think if you have about 1-2 per 100 hands, that's a pretty solid balance typically speaking.

Sorry I wasn't on the call today guys. I had a lot going on, and also had to get prepared for my son's playoff game... which they won vs. the best team in the league. It was an epic little league battle that went 8 innings (2 extra), and they won 4-2, and my kiddo came in to pitch the last inning and shut them down. We had over 120 people watching the game by the end. It was pretty epic.

John A said:

Blog update I think you guys would benefit from.
How to absorb variance in poker by picking more than your share of those small pots people aren't fight for enough:

http://www.acepokersolutions.com/poker-blog/pokerarticles/absorbing-variance-in-poker/?t=apsblog

Click to expand...

So basically we are picking on potentially wide opening ranges and forcing them to have a hand by betting fairly big when the opponent checks postflop. Presumably with a low tension count so it's doesn't look like we are picking on anyone in particular.
By calling we can rep a much wider range especially of lower cards.
I haven't been getting into many bvb spots historically on FR tables. Nearly everyone will open from either CO or Btn in those games if it gets round that far.
It is already a life mission to make the SB as miserable as possible when I'm in the BB. I want the SB to give me a walk most of the time.
Recently I'm playing 6 max and 4 tabling only and doing a lot more of this sort of thing now I'm playing less tables .

I will take the raise sizing on board which is helpful thanks.
I did try to Comment on the APS page but it wouldn't let me from my phone, java and cookies issue.

Figaroo2 said:

So basically we are picking on potentially wide opening ranges and forcing them to have a hand by betting fairly big when the opponent checks postflop. Presumably with a low tension count so it's doesn't look like we are picking on anyone in particular.
By calling we can rep a much wider range especially of lower cards.
I haven't been getting into many bvb spots historically on FR tables. Nearly everyone will open from either CO or Btn in those games if it gets round that far.
It is already a life mission to make the SB as miserable as possible when I'm in the BB. I want the SB to give me a walk most of the time.
Recently I'm playing 6 max and 4 tabling only and doing a lot more of this sort of thing now I'm playing less tables .

I will take the raise sizing on board which is helpful thanks.
I did try to Comment on the APS page but it wouldn't let me from my phone, java and cookies issue.

Click to expand...

Yes, correct. You don't want to check fold or check/fold in these spots. Assuming you haven't been recently really aggressive, then you want to look for the spots where your opponent isn't going to have a big enough hand to call your bluff. And like I try and say, this is probably about 1-2 per 100 hands you play. It's not a lot, but it's enough to absorb some of the variance you have when you get sucked out on, or at least mitigate it.

As far as the blog... on a regular system is this ok, can you comment? I'll have to see about the phone thing. No one has brought that to my attention.

I'm going to write a little more about this today on there.

I put up some part 2 on absorbing variance. I'd take a look and watch the video when you guys have time:

http://www.acepokersolutions.com/poker-blog/pokerarticles/absorbing-variance-in-poker-part-2/

I hope you guys can review this hand. 2NL with antes is very interesting in PS. If you play TAG it is guaranteed a bigger win rate than your normal stakes.

Today I played for an hours in 5 tables for about 400 hands and once was up 5BI.

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cas.../2-nlhe-full-ring-ante-so-291927/#post3040481

skrsh76 said:

I hope you guys can review this hand. 2NL with antes is very interesting in PS. If you play TAG it is guaranteed a bigger win rate than your normal stakes.

Today I played for an hours in 5 tables for about 400 hands and once was up 5BI.

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cas.../2-nlhe-full-ring-ante-so-291927/#post3040481

Click to expand...

I do like the isolating 3 bet if he's a fish but I don't understand why you are making it so complicated.
If he is a fish just keep it simple and as a fish he can certainly donk lead with an ace on the flop so just check call in position and keep control of the pot size.
Your river sizing makes no sense to me, I just check behind. I can only assume you posted it as he spazzed out but you will lose here plenty as well.

John A said:

Blog update I think you guys would benefit from.

How to absorb variance in poker by picking more than your share of those small pots people aren't fight for enough:

http://www.acepokersolutions.com/poker-blog/pokerarticles/absorbing-variance-in-poker/?t=apsblog

Click to expand...

The Blind Battle 2 hand where you flop top pair.
8♦ J♣ on 2♥ 5♠ 8♠

Seem to see this situation quite alot where players with mediocre hands on the flop get more value from delayed CBETs especially if draws don't come in on later streets. Is this the optimal line overall.

Even saw a hand yesterday where they raised AK and flop was something like A83R.
They checked back in position but instead of delayed CBET the other player bet the turn, they called and when player bet Turn they shoved (player folded).

Is this the new thing in position to delay CBETTING to extract more value from agressive players who can't help themselves betting out when you check to them

skrsh76 said:

I hope you guys can review this hand. 2NL with antes is very interesting in PS. If you play TAG it is guaranteed a bigger win rate than your normal stakes.

Today I played for an hours in 5 tables for about 400 hands and once was up 5BI.

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cas.../2-nlhe-full-ring-ante-so-291927/#post3040481

Click to expand...

Just re-post the hand in here.

But ya, I don't mind the flop raise if you're planning on checking it down. The river bet really depends on how fishy you're talking about here. I don't mind a small bet, but if the fish shoves at that point, I think you're going to be beat there more often than not. I don't mind at these stakes, bet/folding small there, even though you're giving yourself insane odds to call. I think it's still profitable (not at other stakes), but betting that river really depends on the fishiness. I'd also probably just flat pre-flop and keep the pot smaller vs someone like this if they are opening 6x.

rhombus said:

The Blind Battle 2 hand where you flop top pair.
8♦ J♣ on 2♥ 5♠ 8♠

Seem to see this situation quite alot where players with mediocre hands on the flop get more value from delayed CBETs especially if draws don't come in on later streets. Is this the optimal line overall.

Even saw a hand yesterday where they raised AK and flop was something like A83R.
They checked back in position but instead of delayed CBET the other player bet the turn, they called and when player bet Turn they shoved (player folded).

Is this the new thing in position to delay CBETTING to extract more value from agressive players who can't help themselves betting out when you check to them

Click to expand...

Good question. Well, I wouldn't say it's a new thing or lots of people are doing it. I think it's more a consequent of how the games are evolving, players are getting better, and even at smaller stakes you have to get a little creative against regs to extract value.

On rainbow boards it will make more sense to do. On more draw heavy boards is where you can really made some cash if you do some good bet sizing on later streets. You have to understand your opponents range in that spot well though and make sure you have a fully thought out plan before you check the flop. EX:, if X draw completes, what am I betting? If X and Y draw complete, am I checking behind. Etc...

John A said:

Good question. Well, I wouldn't say it's a new thing or lots of people are doing it. I think it's more a consequent of how the games are evolving, players are getting better, and even at smaller stakes you have to get a little creative against regs to extract value.

On rainbow boards it will make more sense to do. On more draw heavy boards is where you can really made some cash if you do some good bet sizing on later streets. You have to understand your opponents range in that spot well though and make sure you have a fully thought out plan before you check the flop. EX:, if X draw completes, what am I betting? If X and Y draw complete, am I checking behind. Etc...

Click to expand...

In general check back with mediocre 1 pair hand against aggro and bet vs passive

Want sure what you meant re : draw heavy boards
Aggro are more likely to CR bluff so is it still ok to Check Flop and bet Turn and maybe bet River if runout is ok

rhombus said:

In general check back with mediocre 1 pair hand against aggro and bet vs passive

Want sure what you meant re : draw heavy boards
Aggro are more likely to CR bluff so is it still ok to Check Flop and bet Turn and maybe bet River if runout is ok

Click to expand...

Correct. I just mean on draw heavy boards you can bet larger on the turn and river and get paid wider because people will typically discount much of your thinner value range.

A hand from yesterday's sweat session. The guy was a 21/4 with 30% aggression over 700 hands. I couldn't see him doing this with less than A8 but most likely with a set of deuces or sevens. I don't think he's doing this with missed clubs or the lesser two pair combos. Thoughts?


Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $1 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP: 193.6 BB (VPIP: 21.27, PFR: 4.20, 3Bet Preflop: 1.42, Hands: 702)
MP+1: 115.54 BB (VPIP: 18.61, PFR: 14.22, 3Bet Preflop: 5.92, Hands: 1,170)
Hero (MP+2): 271.21 BB
CO: 107.12 BB (VPIP: 22.48, PFR: 13.18, 3Bet Preflop: 3.57, Hands: 129)
BTN: 162.65 BB (VPIP: 17.89, PFR: 11.93, 3Bet Preflop: 3.25, Hands: 289)
SB: 315.71 BB (VPIP: 14.50, PFR: 9.92, 3Bet Preflop: 6.12, Hands: 132)
BB: 100 BB (VPIP: 18.18, PFR: 14.53, 3Bet Preflop: 8.03, Hands: 1,349)
UTG: 119.71 BB (VPIP: 15.68, PFR: 11.73, 3Bet Preflop: 4.39, Hands: 1,732)
UTG+1: 26.58 BB (VPIP: 48.39, PFR: 6.45, 3Bet Preflop: 8.33, Hands: 32)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J♣ A♥

fold, fold, MP calls 1 BB, fold, Hero raises to 4 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold, MP calls 3 BB

Flop: (9.5 BB, 2 players) 7♣ 2♠ A♣
MP checks, Hero bets 6.02 BB, MP calls 6.02 BB

Turn: (21.54 BB, 2 players) J♥
MP checks, Hero bets 13.64 BB, MP calls 13.64 BB

River: (48.82 BB, 2 players) 8♦
MP checks, Hero bets 33 BB, MP raises to 169.94 BB and is all-in, ???

or3o1990 said:

A hand from yesterday's sweat session. The guy was a 21/4 with 30% aggression over 700 hands. I couldn't see him doing this with less than A8 but most likely with a set of deuces or sevens. I don't think he's doing this with missed clubs or the lesser two pair combos. Thoughts?


Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $1 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP: 193.6 BB (VPIP: 21.27, PFR: 4.20, 3Bet Preflop: 1.42, Hands: 702)
MP+1: 115.54 BB (VPIP: 18.61, PFR: 14.22, 3Bet Preflop: 5.92, Hands: 1,170)
Hero (MP+2): 271.21 BB
CO: 107.12 BB (VPIP: 22.48, PFR: 13.18, 3Bet Preflop: 3.57, Hands: 129)
BTN: 162.65 BB (VPIP: 17.89, PFR: 11.93, 3Bet Preflop: 3.25, Hands: 289)
SB: 315.71 BB (VPIP: 14.50, PFR: 9.92, 3Bet Preflop: 6.12, Hands: 132)
BB: 100 BB (VPIP: 18.18, PFR: 14.53, 3Bet Preflop: 8.03, Hands: 1,349)
UTG: 119.71 BB (VPIP: 15.68, PFR: 11.73, 3Bet Preflop: 4.39, Hands: 1,732)
UTG+1: 26.58 BB (VPIP: 48.39, PFR: 6.45, 3Bet Preflop: 8.33, Hands: 32)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J♣ A♥

fold, fold, MP calls 1 BB, fold, Hero raises to 4 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold, MP calls 3 BB

Flop: (9.5 BB, 2 players) 7♣ 2♠ A♣
MP checks, Hero bets 6.02 BB, MP calls 6.02 BB

Turn: (21.54 BB, 2 players) J♥
MP checks, Hero bets 13.64 BB, MP calls 13.64 BB

River: (48.82 BB, 2 players) 8♦
MP checks, Hero bets 33 BB, MP raises to 169.94 BB and is all-in, ???

Click to expand...

Bet more on the turn. Good bet/fold on the river. I think if this kind of player bluff jams you here this deep, you tip your cap. I doubt he does this w/ A8 either.

How did the rest of the sweat go? I had to run and get ready for a game.

Yeah I was thinking bet bigger on the turn, if he calls a big turn bet on such a dry board I'm starting to wonder what with though. I don't think players with stats like 21/4 do much limp calling with ace rag. Maybe A2s A7s but they don't overbet shove like this when they have very good showdown value.
A club draw or a set look more likely.
This has to be a set on the end off of his stats Good fold IMO

5nl LOL, lets have a punt. Notes on shover...ATSC

Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players

SB: $5 (100 bb)
BB: $1.70 (34 bb) VPIP: 81, PFR: 0, 3B: 0, AF: 0.9, Hands: 27
UTG: $5.11 (102.2 bb) REG
MP: $4.48 (89.6 bb) VPIP: 67, PFR: 43, 3B: 17, AF: 3.3, Hands: 21
CO: $5.26 (105.2 bb)
Hero (BTN): $5 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with K A
UTG raises to $0.15, MP calls $0.15, CO folds, Hero raises to $0.50, SB folds, BB calls $0.45, UTG calls $0.35, MP raises to $4.48 and is all-in, Hero raises to $5 and is all-in, BB calls $1.20 and is all-in, UTG calls $4.50

Flop: ($16.20) 8 9 J (4 players, 3 are all-in)
Turn: ($16.20) 5 (4 players, 3 are all-in)
River: ($16.20) 6 (4 players, 3 are all-in)

Results: $16.20 pot ($0.67 rake)
Final Board: 8 9 J 5 6
BB showed 6 9 and won $6.54 ($4.84 net)
UTG showed A K and won $0.50 (-$4.50 net)
MP showed 5 Q and won $7.99 ($3.51 net)
Hero showed K A and won $0.50 (-$4.50 net)

Q5 96os ....well played

ty. I felt ok letting that one go against him. Wish I was 100bb deep so I could have seen his 22. I had to run shortly after you left so not much else happened. How did your team do?

Felt like I lost value here, any comments?

Don't often get raised on the flop like this at small stakes, I just clicked it back immediately without thinking about it. Then we have just over a pot sized bet left. Would it have been better to CRAI on the turn here? If he checks it through then to lead the river? It's not like I'm scared of any cards other than 3 Aces.
I hoping to get a call from TT JJ especially if they have a diamond, Think he probably 3 bets QQ pre.
I don't like to let the good regs think they can just float me at will in position and take it away. He and several other Regs avoided me after this hand so shoving here clearly
helps on that front.

Pacific, $0.10/$0.20 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players

SB: $24.68 (123.4 bb)
BB: $20 (100 bb)
UTG+2: $10.30 (51.5 bb)
Hero (MP1): $27.97 (139.9 bb)
MP2: $29.54 (147.7 bb) VPIP: 21, PFR: 15, 3B: 7, AF: 2.9, Hands: 817
Very good Reg
MP3: $13.75 (68.8 bb)
CO: $20 (100 bb)
BTN: $24.64 (123.2 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K K
UTG+2 folds, Hero raises to $0.70, MP2 calls $0.70, 5 folds

Flop: ($1.70) 3 3 9 (2 players)
Hero bets $1.27, MP2 raises to $3.39, Hero raises to $7.63, MP2 calls $4.24

Turn: ($16.96) 8 (2 players)
Hero bets $19.64, MP2 folds

Results: $16.96 pot ($0.84 rake)
Final Board: 3 3 9 8
Hero mucked K K and won $16.12 ($7.79 net)
MP2 mucked and lost (-$8.33 net)

your ranges for the villiain?

Pacific, $0.10/$0.20 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $28.07 (140.4 bb) VPIP: 100, PFR: 0, 3B: 0, AF: 3.0, Hands: 3
BB: $26.74 (133.7 bb)
UTG+1: $14.05 (70.3 bb)
UTG+2: $20 (100 bb)
MP1: $21.99 (110 bb)
MP2: $24.88 (124.4 bb)
MP3: $19 (95 bb)
CO: $10 (50 bb)
Hero (BTN): $20 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with 5 A
6 folds, Hero raises to $0.57, SB calls $0.47, BB folds

Flop: ($1.34) Q 7 5 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($1.34) A (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1, SB raises to $2, Hero calls $1

River: ($5.34) 4 (2 players)
SB bets $5.34, Hero?

Figaroo2 said:

5nl LOL, lets have a punt. Notes on shover...ATSC

Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players

SB: $5 (100 bb)
BB: $1.70 (34 bb) VPIP: 81, PFR: 0, 3B: 0, AF: 0.9, Hands: 27
UTG: $5.11 (102.2 bb) REG
MP: $4.48 (89.6 bb) VPIP: 67, PFR: 43, 3B: 17, AF: 3.3, Hands: 21
CO: $5.26 (105.2 bb)
Hero (BTN): $5 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with K

A

UTG raises to $0.15, MP calls $0.15, CO folds, Hero raises to $0.50, SB folds, BB calls $0.45, UTG calls $0.35, MP raises to $4.48 and is all-in, Hero raises to $5 and is all-in, BB calls $1.20 and is all-in, UTG calls $4.50

Flop: ($16.20) 8

9

J

(4 players, 3 are all-in)
Turn: ($16.20) 5

(4 players, 3 are all-in)
River: ($16.20) 6

(4 players, 3 are all-in)

Results: $16.20 pot ($0.67 rake)
Final Board: 8

9

J

5

6

BB showed 6

9

and won $6.54 ($4.84 net)
UTG showed A

K

and won $0.50 (-$4.50 net)
MP showed 5

Q

and won $7.99 ($3.51 net)
Hero showed K

A

and won $0.50 (-$4.50 net)

Q5 96os ....well played

Click to expand...

Standard. I'd do the same.

Figaroo2 said:

Pacific, $0.10/$0.20 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $28.07 (140.4 bb) VPIP: 100, PFR: 0, 3B: 0, AF: 3.0, Hands: 3
BB: $26.74 (133.7 bb)
UTG+1: $14.05 (70.3 bb)
UTG+2: $20 (100 bb)
MP1: $21.99 (110 bb)
MP2: $24.88 (124.4 bb)
MP3: $19 (95 bb)
CO: $10 (50 bb)
Hero (BTN): $20 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with 5

A

6 folds, Hero raises to $0.57, SB calls $0.47, BB folds

Flop: ($1.34) Q

7

5

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($1.34) A

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1, SB raises to $2, Hero calls $1

River: ($5.34) 4

(2 players)
SB bets $5.34, Hero?

Spoiler

calls $5.34 Results: $16.02 pot ($0.80 rake)
Final Board: Q

7

5

A

4

SB showed Q

5

and lost (-$7.91 net)
Hero showed 5

A

and won $15.22 ($7.31 net)

Click to expand...

Hmmm... 100%, but only 3 hands. I think I lean towards a fold w/ a range of AQ/A7/A5/77/55/75/6d8d. But he could be a total donkey, but still I probably fold the river.

or3o1990 said:

ty. I felt ok letting that one go against him. Wish I was 100bb deep so I could have seen his 22. I had to run shortly after you left so not much else happened. How did your team do?

Click to expand...

Ya, I think that you're beat there more than 9 out of 10.

Team lost... but it's double elimination. I'm just coaching, and the manager is horrible. So it's a tough spot to be in. I have all of the knowledge and teach the kids how to play, and he's the brilliant strategist that has never played the game and doesn't want any advice. It's just 7-9 y/olds, but you'd think they were all playing for the world series with how intense everyone is. It's crazy.