Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

vinylspiros · Sep 21, 2016

John, this might be a question with an "it depends" answer but, what in your opinion are the stats of the biggest winning players in the micros? (or even higher, im asking micros cause thats where i am right now)

Im talking about vpip and pfr.

Is it 20/16, 23/18, 16/12?

Where do we want these ranges to be? Like from your experience, when you look at the biggest winners in your database, what are they running?

And why do you think that they are the biggest winners?

Cause everyone likes to make fun of the nits, but it could be that they are making more than the rest of us "cool" lag players.

John A · Sep 21, 2016

Ian the Fish said:
I'd love to, John, but first I'd like to be able to download your book. Unfortunately, "the resource cannot be found" I cannot do so, as the link in your signature is not allowing me to. Could you, perhaps, help?

Not sure... it works for me. Maybe it was temporarily down or something. I'm honestly not sure, but I click on it and it's there. Maybe try again?

John A · Sep 21, 2016

vinylspiros said:
John, this might be a question with an "it depends" answer but, what in your opinion are the stats of the biggest winning players in the micros? (or even higher, im asking micros cause thats where i am right now)

Im talking about vpip and pfr.

Is it 20/16, 23/18, 16/12?

Where do we want these ranges to be? Like from your experience, when you look at the biggest winners in your database, what are they running?

And why do you think that they are the biggest winners?

Cause everyone likes to make fun of the nits, but it could be that they are making more than the rest of us "cool" lag players.

I have a simple answer for you. Tighter stats work at these stakes because your opponents don't know how to exploit other players, they aren't that great post flop, they have lots of problems w/ their bet sizing, and they don't know how to spot profitable bluffs consistently enough. So like I've said many times, if you keep things simple, and just play strong hands at these stakes, you will win.

When you open up your range wider at these stakes, you're just exposing your own holes in you game. And that's fine if you're looking to learn, but that's the cause of why more hands will equal less profit, generally speaking, at these stakes.

There's nothing cool about playing LAG. A lot of people want to run before they walk. It's human nature, but I've always tried to encourage people to play extremely solid TAG first, and then once you actually understand what you're doing and what your opponents are doing and you really really really understand hand ranges, THEN increase your range. You just make things 100x more difficult trying to play LAG before you're ready imho. It won't accelerate your learning, it will hold it back. Like I said above, I think it's fine to sometimes open up your range to learn, but I wouldn't recommend making it your main MO.

rhombus · Sep 21, 2016

vinylspiros said:
John, this might be a question with an "it depends" answer but, what in your opinion are the stats of the biggest winning players in the micros? (or even higher, im asking micros cause thats where i am right now)

Im talking about vpip and pfr.

Is it 20/16, 23/18, 16/12?

Where do we want these ranges to be? Like from your experience, when you look at the biggest winners in your database, what are they running?

And why do you think that they are the biggest winners?

Cause everyone likes to make fun of the nits, but it could be that they are making more than the rest of us "cool" lag players.

6Max or Full

In LeakBuster HUD
6Max Optimal VPIP 19-26 and PFR 15 - 22.2
Full Ring Optimal VPIP 14 - 20 and PFR 10 - 16

In Leakbuster itself, 6Max VPIP is 20.2 - 27.6 PFR 15-22.1

Figaroo2 · Sep 21, 2016

John A said:
I have a simple answer for you. Tighter stats work at these stakes because your opponents don't know how to exploit other players, they aren't that great post flop, they have lots of problems w/ their bet sizing, and they don't know how to spot profitable bluffs consistently enough. So like I've said many times, if you keep things simple, and just play strong hands at these stakes, you will win.

When you open up your range wider at these stakes, you're just exposing your own holes in you game. And that's fine if you're looking to learn, but that's the cause of why more hands will equal less profit, generally speaking, at these stakes.

There's nothing cool about playing LAG. A lot of people want to run before they walk. It's human nature, but I've always tried to encourage people to play extremely solid TAG first, and then once you actually understand what you're doing and what your opponents are doing and you really really really understand hand ranges, THEN increase your range. You just make things 100x more difficult trying to play LAG before you're ready imho. It won't accelerate your learning, it will hold it back. Like I said above, I think it's fine to sometimes open up your range to learn, but I wouldn't recommend making it your main MO.

lol, fine words of wisdom from John. Thank you.
I've been playing seriously since 2012 and so much of this still applies to me.
I still struggle to exploit most player types, I still consider myself weak postflop in terms of spotting bluffing opportunities and just as important when I do spot them actually pulling the trigger to back my reads and my bet sizing still isn't mastered by any means
I can hand read away from the table but often fail in actual play. Still lots of work to do.....

vinylspiros · Sep 21, 2016

Honest to god, your reply was great and much appreciated and i totally get your point and agree.

What im asking is , is there a numerical response ? Like , i mean, it seems like your advocating for learners to play tight and i get why.

The question is, how tight is alright? Isnt a vpip of less than 18 way too tight?

If you had to say the best vpip/pfr ratio for someone to maintain, what average would you say is better? 20/16 or 24/21?

Ian the Fish · Sep 22, 2016

John A said:
Not sure... it works for me. Maybe it was temporarily down or something. I'm honestly not sure, but I click on it and it's there. Maybe try again?

Everything worked out well! Thanks for the reply tho! The great Figaroo helped me out.

Like I told him - this weekend I will have some reading to do.

As for the topic itself - vinylspiros, I am also currently grinding out the very lowest limits of the micros (NL2). I have nearly tripled my roll by 4 tabling - gonna try to build my roll to be able to go up to NL5 (*tries to build some credibility*).

What I have learned (the hard way, unfortunately) that studying your own game and analyzing hand history is of great importance. I try to put in 1h of studying per 1h of play time.

Thus, I don't think that there is a numerical answer to your question - it is quite common that when I 4-table, I would play very tight at 3 of them, while the other one I would be loose and prone to bluffing. And all of that simply because I have taken notes on the players, and I can estimate their play style, based on their game's history.

If you find a table, which you can exploit - go for it! Be proactive! Put in those check-raise bluffs, if you know you can pull them off.

In short, my advice would be to analyze your game more and be aware of the surrounding players. All it takes is just one - and perhaps you have found your goldmine.

John A · Sep 22, 2016

vinylspiros said:
Honest to god, your reply was great and much appreciated and i totally get your point and agree.

What im asking is , is there a numerical response ? Like , i mean, it seems like your advocating for learners to play tight and i get why.

The question is, how tight is alright? Isnt a vpip of less than 18 way too tight?

If you had to say the best vpip/pfr ratio for someone to maintain, what average would you say is better? 20/16 or 24/21?

I assume you mean for 6max and full ring and not 4 handed, etc..

6Max VPIP 19.5-22 and PFR 16.5 - 22
Full Ring VPIP 14 - 17.5 and PFR 12 - 17.5

As you know, stats are just indicators. You don't want to force yourself to conform to a particular stat. You just want to use them as guides that will help you look into what areas of your game are causing you a problem. So if your VPIP is too high, you do what we do here, we look at the obvious first parts that people tend to struggle with the most and try and cut down on those areas. The same parts we talk about in Polished poker like cold calling OOP, playing too many hands in EP, etc... then you work backwards from there into the more subtle parts of the game. That's all stuff we've gone over in here, and I'm sure we'll go over it many times more. That's how we're going to learn as a group.

Those are my rough numbers to work from. If you play within that framework, you give yourself better odds to be profitable. Once you maintain some profitability playing that style, you slowly add some more hands, include more cold calling in position, etc...

vinylspiros · Sep 23, 2016

Thanks alot for the reply. Having nothing to add as you were crystal clear.

Thanks again for being here and helping us. Means alot and much appreciated.

rhombus · Sep 24, 2016

havent play Cash NLHE for a week and it shows

Hand1 BLind vs Blind - Over bet on River - How many Draws??? vs value Call or Fold

Hand2 Shorty shoves on draw heavy board Call or Fold

Hand 3 Another BLind vs BLind. Once called twice on flop decided to go to showdown mode. On River as I block a flush and straight draw wasnt sure to call or Fold. When they bet turn Put them on flush draw with Ah or Kh and maybe a pair

Hand1
poker stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $22.11 (221.1 bb) 44/11 AG%44 HAnds 12
Hero (BB): $10.15 (101.5 bb)
UTG: $19.78 (197.8 bb)
MP: $9.21 (92.1 bb)
CO: $26.21 (262.1 bb)
BTN: $12.40 (124 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Ts Qd
4 folds, SB raises to $0.30, Hero calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.60) 3c Qs 6s (2 players)
SB bets $0.40, Hero calls $0.40

Turn: ($1.40) 2h (2 players)
SB bets $1, Hero calls $1

River: ($3.40) 2d (2 players)
SB bets $4, Hero ???

Hand2
Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $9.49 (94.9 bb)
BB: $4.24 (42.4 bb) 63/13 58% AG 8 Hands
UTG: $7.65 (76.5 bb)
MP: $16.90 (169 bb)
CO: $19.76 (197.6 bb)
Hero (BTN): $10 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with Ac 6d
3 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, SB calls $0.25, BB calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.90) 9s Ah 5s (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $0.58, SB folds, BB raises to $3.94 and is all-in, Hero ???

Hand 3
Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

Hero (SB): $10.02 (100.2 bb)
BB: $11.14 (111.4 bb) 33/0 AG 50% 9 hands
UTG: $18.24 (182.4 bb)
MP: $7.15 (71.5 bb)
CO: $17 (170 bb)
BTN: $16.37 (163.7 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Jh Qc
3 folds, BTN raises to $0.20, Hero calls $0.15, BB calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.60) 4s Qh 8h (3 players)
Hero bets $0.40, BB calls $0.40, BTN calls $0.40

Turn: ($1.80) 5h (3 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $1, BTN folds, Hero calls $1

River: ($3.80) 9d (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $2.10, Hero ???

MattRyder · Sep 24, 2016

What do you guys think of how I played this one? I hadn't been at the table long. I made a standard raise pre-flop with 99, but got a small 3-bet by a short player which was called by three others. I had a love-hate relationship with the flop - hit my set, but there were so many different ways to lose the hand.

I guess my real question is should I have played the flop any differently? I expected (and was quite happy with) a raise from the short guy (who was playing kind of loose) but was not happy when the other guy (who was playing kind of tight) shoved. Still, I couldn't see folding my set.

On the flop, the odds were - me: 56%, QTs: 29%, JJ: 15%.

After that I went from favorite to dog and lost to QTs on the turn & to JJ on the river.

PokerStars - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: $5.00 (VPIP: 16.67, PFR: 12.50, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 24)
BB: $5.32 (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 12)
Hero (UTG): $6.45
MP: $1.25 (VPIP: 30.00, PFR: 10.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 44)
CO: $5.00 (VPIP: 39.13, PFR: 32.61, 3Bet Preflop: 10.00, Hands: 49)
BTN: $5.09 (VPIP: 21.43, PFR: 14.29, 3Bet Preflop: 10.53, Hands: 44)

SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.07) Hero has 9:spade: 9:heart:

Hero raises to $0.15, MP raises to $0.25, CO calls $0.25, BTN calls $0.25, fold, BB calls $0.20, Hero calls $0.10

Flop: ($1.27, 5 players) 9:diamond: 7:diamond: T:heart:
BB checks, Hero bets $0.75, MP raises to $1.00 and is all-in, fold, BTN raises to $4.84 and is all-in, fold, Hero calls $4.09

Turn: ($11.95, 3 players) A:diamond:

River: ($11.95, 3 players) J:spade:

Hero shows 9:spade: 9:heart: (Three of a Kind, Nines)

Main Pot [$4.27]: (Pre 19%, Flop 56%, Turn 21%)
Side Pot#1 [$7.68]: (Pre 20%, Flop 74%, Turn 71%)

BTN shows J:club: J:diamond: (Three of a Kind, Jacks)

Main Pot [$4.27]: (Pre 54%, Flop 15%, Turn 0%)
Side Pot#1 [$7.68]: (Pre 80%, Flop 26%, Turn 29%)

MP shows Q:diamond: T:diamond: (Flush, Ace High)

Main Pot [$4.27]: (Pre 28%, Flop 29%, Turn 79%)

MP wins $4.09
BTN wins $7.36

Figaroo2 · Sep 25, 2016

MattRyder said:
What do you guys think of how I played this one?
I guess my real question is should I have played the flop any differently?

Cash games are different from tournaments in that you should always be ready and willing to be all in as a 56% favourite. Sure you will lose nearly half the time and the short term variance will sting but you have to learn to cope with that as it's an integral part of the game. These scenarios are why we need to be properly rolled and not playing with scare money.
If a gambler said to you lets flip a coin 100 times $5 a flip. You can have the first 6 flips and be $36 up and let's see if I can catch up. Are you going to turn that down?
The hand pretty much plays itself pre flop you are calling the extra 10c multiway all day. On the flop you have to bet to charge the draws and the short fish shoves his draw. JJ tries to isolate which is risky against your range.
Of course you are calling here with your set on a wet board like this with so many draws out there. Bad play from both villains here, good job of table selection and be glad they are at your table.

Mantones · Sep 25, 2016

You provide such a great service here and you help a lot of players including me here...thank you very much buddy

John A · Sep 25, 2016

vinylspiros said:
Thanks alot for the reply. Having nothing to add as you were crystal clear.

Thanks again for being here and helping us. Means alot and much appreciated.

Of course... you're welcome. One advantage of having done leak buster is I got to really nerd it up and look at a lot of data probably no other online player has really analyzed. I had 3 different rounds of looking at 20 million+ hands (one set of 100mill+), at just about every stake level. And then just using our tools to be able to do population tendencies and averages. It was a ton of data to analyze that really solidified a lot of "theories" for me.

John A · Sep 25, 2016

rhombus said:
havent play Cash NLHE for a week and it shows

Hand1 BLind vs Blind - Over bet on River - How many Draws??? vs value Call or Fold

Hand2 Shorty shoves on draw heavy board Call or Fold

Hand 3 Another BLind vs BLind. Once called twice on flop decided to go to showdown mode. On River as I block a flush and straight draw wasnt sure to call or Fold. When they bet turn Put them on flush draw with Ah or Kh and maybe a pair

Hand1
Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $22.11 (221.1 bb) 44/11 AG%44 HAnds 12
Hero (BB): $10.15 (101.5 bb)
UTG: $19.78 (197.8 bb)
MP: $9.21 (92.1 bb)
CO: $26.21 (262.1 bb)
BTN: $12.40 (124 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Ts Qd
4 folds, SB raises to $0.30, Hero calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.60) 3c Qs 6s (2 players)
SB bets $0.40, Hero calls $0.40

Turn: ($1.40) 2h (2 players)
SB bets $1, Hero calls $1

River: ($3.40) 2d (2 players)
SB bets $4, Hero ???

I'd call here. Guy has already shown is probably aggressive. I think guys at these stakes that are bad (meaning 40%+ VPIP) will overbet some for value, but also too often as bad bluffs as well. This would be a bad bluff by all standards. You've called 2 streets here, if you had a draw, he doesn't need to bet this much to bluff you off your draw. It's a Q high flop. So basically he either has 45, A2 type hand, he whiffed a draw, or he can't contain himself from bluffing once he's put this much in the pot. So I think a call is slightly + EV. But really not a huge difference call/fold because of the sizing.

Hand2
Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $9.49 (94.9 bb)
BB: $4.24 (42.4 bb) 63/13 58% AG 8 Hands
UTG: $7.65 (76.5 bb)
MP: $16.90 (169 bb)
CO: $19.76 (197.6 bb)
Hero (BTN): $10 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with Ac 6d
3 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, SB calls $0.25, BB calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.90) 9s Ah 5s (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $0.58, SB folds, BB raises to $3.94 and is all-in, Hero ???

Short stacker here, it's a call. They'll jam any Ax, 9x, and spade draw.

Hand 3
Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

Hero (SB): $10.02 (100.2 bb)
BB: $11.14 (111.4 bb) 33/0 AG 50% 9 hands
UTG: $18.24 (182.4 bb)
MP: $7.15 (71.5 bb)
CO: $17 (170 bb)
BTN: $16.37 (163.7 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Jh Qc
3 folds, BTN raises to $0.20, Hero calls $0.15, BB calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.60) 4s Qh 8h (3 players)
Hero bets $0.40, BB calls $0.40, BTN calls $0.40

Turn: ($1.80) 5h (3 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $1, BTN folds, Hero calls $1

River: ($3.80) 9d (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $2.10, Hero ???

If you're checking that turn, then you should be folding. Especially since BB bets as well. He's betting into 2 people after calling that flop. As played fold river.

John A · Sep 25, 2016

MattRyder said:
What do you guys think of how I played this one? I hadn't been at the table long. I made a standard raise pre-flop with 99, but got a small 3-bet by a short player which was called by three others. I had a love-hate relationship with the flop - hit my set, but there were so many different ways to lose the hand.

I'd bet at least $1 on that flop. But what do you think you should have done differently?

OmarRD7 · Sep 25, 2016

I'm in. It seems really interesting to me.

I'm a small stack player. So, I really want to get some new acknowledge about it.

rhombus · Sep 25, 2016

John A said:
I'd call here. Guy has already shown is probably aggressive. I think guys at these stakes that are bad (meaning 40%+ VPIP) will overbet some for value, but also too often as bad bluffs as well. This would be a bad bluff by all standards. You've called 2 streets here, if you had a draw, he doesn't need to bet this much to bluff you off your draw. It's a Q high flop. So basically he either has 45, A2 type hand, he whiffed a draw, or he can't contain himself from bluffing once he's put this much in the pot. So I think a call is slightly + EV. But really not a huge difference call/fold because of the sizing.

I called and they had 66 for a Set

Short stacker here, it's a call. They'll jam any Ax, 9x, and spade draw.

Called again another SET 55

If you're checking that turn, then you should be folding. Especially since BB bets as well. He's betting into 2 people after calling that flop. As played fold river.

Last Hand Called again LOL he had 7h9h for flush

PS Sorry about hand layout in my post, had HUD probs and forgot to change back to Cardschat View

rhombus · Sep 25, 2016

Kind of struggling with when to fold Post Flop when I call a raise and flop top or second Pair. Maybe I'm just running into top of their range at the moment.

What are general rules of thumb tips for Post flop - Call CBET and fold to Turn if you dont pick up equity especially against passives or maybe call flop and Turn against LAGS

Typical hand below.

Call in BB vs SB and flop 2nd pair on dry board
cant fold to CBET. Do you call Turn and fold River
Or maybe even Check Raise earlier Flop or Turn

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $9.30 (93 bb)
Hero (BB): $10.32 (103.2 bb)
UTG: $9.62 (96.2 bb)
MP: $10.77 (107.7 bb)
CO: $10.87 (108.7 bb)
BTN: $20.41 (204.1 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9

A

4 folds, SB raises to $0.30, Hero calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.60) 9

J

6

(2 players)
SB bets $0.40, Hero calls $0.40

Turn: ($1.40) 2

(2 players)
SB bets $1, Hero calls $1

River: ($3.40) 8

(2 players)
SB bets $3.25, Hero folds

Results: $3.40 pot ($0.15 rake)
Final Board: 9

J

6

2

8

SB mucked and won $3.25 ($1.55 net)
Hero mucked 9

A

and lost (-$1.70 net)

Aces2w1n · Sep 26, 2016

need more information on villain to know if its a call

id fold here its not a good board for 2nd pair unlesd he keeps betting very wide with high vpip

rhombus · Sep 26, 2016

Aces2w1n said:
need more information on villain to know if its a call

id fold here its not a good board for 2nd pair unlesd he keeps betting very wide with high vpip

It was only a small sample thats why I mentioned : -

What are general rules of thumb tips for Post flop - Call CBET and fold to Turn if you dont pick up equity especially against passives or maybe call flop and Turn against LAGS

John A · Sep 26, 2016

rhombus said:
Last Hand Called again LOL he had 7h9h for flush

PS Sorry about hand layout in my post, had HUD probs and forgot to change back to Cardschat View

Yeah, I think except for the last hand you played them fine. The first hand is somewhat close like I said because of the sizing. But because of the situation and his aggression a call is good.

John A · Sep 26, 2016

rhombus said:
Kind of struggling with when to fold Post Flop when I call a raise and flop top or second Pair. Maybe I'm just running into top of their range at the moment.

What are general rules of thumb tips for Post flop - Call CBET and fold to Turn if you dont pick up equity especially against passives or maybe call flop and Turn against LAGS

Typical hand below.

Call in BB vs SB and flop 2nd pair on dry board
cant fold to CBET. Do you call Turn and fold River
Or maybe even Check Raise earlier Flop or Turn

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $9.30 (93 bb)
Hero (BB): $10.32 (103.2 bb)
UTG: $9.62 (96.2 bb)
MP: $10.77 (107.7 bb)
CO: $10.87 (108.7 bb)
BTN: $20.41 (204.1 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9

A

4 folds, SB raises to $0.30, Hero calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.60) 9

J

6

(2 players)
SB bets $0.40, Hero calls $0.40

Turn: ($1.40) 2

(2 players)
SB bets $1, Hero calls $1

River: ($3.40) 8

(2 players)
SB bets $3.25, Hero folds

Results: $3.40 pot ($0.15 rake)
Final Board: 9

J

6

2

8

SB mucked and won $3.25 ($1.55 net)
Hero mucked 9

A

and lost (-$1.70 net)

You played the hand fine. There's not much more you can do w/o better info here. So call / call / river hits a ton of their range, fold to large bet.

There's no set recipe in these spots other than calling 2 streets w/ 2nd pair is completely standard here. If you're really struggling, you can mix it up and 3-bet some more of these hands in position and either pick them up pre-flop or have some initiative post flop. Try and cut down on your cold calling for a bit and get your confidence back.

rhombus · Sep 27, 2016

John A said:
You played the hand fine. There's not much more you can do w/o better info here. So call / call / river hits a ton of their range, fold to large bet.

There's no set recipe in these spots other than calling 2 streets w/ 2nd pair is completely standard here. If you're really struggling, you can mix it up and 3-bet some more of these hands in position and either pick them up pre-flop or have some initiative post flop. Try and cut down on your cold calling for a bit and get your confidence back.

thanks will try

John A · Sep 27, 2016

rhombus said:
thanks will try

or.... you will do!

Maybe a previous article will help you re-focus:

http://www.acepokersolutions.com/poker-blog/pokerarticles/absorbing-variance-in-poker/

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