Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

Figaroo2 said:

Bad passive reg, could we have made the turn $4 bigger?
A little bit of an action killer on the river. What would you do on the end here?
When he called the turn I started to think ace of spades with K/J/9 of spades might be out there.

Pacific, $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 7 Players

SB: $32.25 (64.5 bb)
BB: $51.25 (102.5 bb)
MP1: $32.77 (65.5 bb)
MP2: $51.09 (102.2 bb) VPIP: 25, PFR: 7, 3B: 4, AF: 1.4, Hands: 518
MP3: $50.87 (101.7 bb)
Hero (CO): $50 (100 bb)
BTN: $124.18 (248.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A

Q

MP1 folds, MP2 raises to $1.75, MP3 folds, Hero calls $1.75, 3 folds

Flop: ($4.25) T

4

J

(2 players)
MP2 bets $2.12, Hero calls $2.12

Turn: ($8.49) K

(2 players)
MP2 bets $4.24, Hero raises to $12.72, MP2 calls $8.48

River: ($33.93) 5

(2 players)
MP2 checks,
Hero?

Click to expand...

Are you asking how much you should bet, or if you should bet at all? Clearly you need to bet, and you can probably even bet enough to fold to a jam considering how passive he is. Bet something like $19 to get calls from his two pairs. He probably doesn't have a set. It's probably more like KQ, KJ, JT, maybe KTs.

so we should always bet there john and fold to reraises/shoves ??

daniel neugranea i cant spell his name lol
anyways he suggests u bet more in that spot to avoid being bluffed off these type of hands. But i dont listen to him much because he seems to lose cash games and has many live tells

was a pokerschool video through pokerstars ... not really one to watch those videos or promotional etc

I agree it's a bet fold spot as any 2 pair hand should call some sort of bet. The dilemma for me was over sizing. Once the possibility of a flush arrives I don't think 2 pair will call as much as $19, I'm thinking that 2 pair might call 1/4 to 1/3 pot $10-$15 but if you go too small you open the door to a bluff shove repping the flush. However, as is pointed out his aggression is so low that's not really in his playbook.
Unfortunately I was using a new HUD and didn't notice the the really low aggression stat. I actually tanked too long in the end and saw too many monster flushes and checked behind. I was disappointed in myself as I rarely miss a value bet now.. and again a little bit of the hesitancy comes from it being a shot take and that I'm not great at folding when I've made the nuts on the turn. It's tough to make the nuts and even tougher to let it go on the river. I've had half a dozen hands very recently where I've had nut straights and flushes on the turn only to see the board pair/flush on the river and paid off better hands including quads (twice). I only found a fold about once in 6 hands
So I know the answer is to bet enough that a raise is only coming from a nutted hand but I'm still not good enough at putting it all together in real time and finding the fold button..

Fwiw the villain had AK which explains the turn call as he made tptk on the turn but I doubt he calls much on the end but hey you never know Ricky and I have both bewilderingly had villains call it off with complete air recently

Yeah by the looks of it, he would've called to a decent size bet.

Because I think its one of those hands villain maybe getting caught up with betting with air and hitting. And then will out trick himself.

I find people and even myself in the past have got caught up being tricky so much, you ignore the fact at the texture and all your thinking is I have TPTK cuz I bet the flop you won't put me on the A with top kicker! but ignore the fact you could be crushed... Yes its fishy thinking and yes he is a fish and prolly thinks about his 2cards this way.

Sounds crazy but I use to think that way once upon a time, so I guess others would as well.

Aces2w1n said:

so we should always bet there john and fold to reraises/shoves ??

daniel neugranea i cant spell his name lol
anyways he suggests u bet more in that spot to avoid being bluffed off these type of hands. But i dont listen to him much because he seems to lose cash games and has many live tells

was a pokerschool video through pokerstars ... not really one to watch those videos or promotional etc

Click to expand...

When have you ever heard me say you should always bet / fold in that spot?

Specifically versus a very passive opponent, when you have the second a nutted straight, yes, you should be betting. And even though you give yourself insane odds on a shove call, you should fold in this spot against this kind of opponent. They are never bluffing or over valuing their hand in this spot if they are just calling the turn raise.

Figaroo2 said:

I agree it's a bet fold spot as any 2 pair hand should call some sort of bet. The dilemma for me was over sizing. Once the possibility of a flush arrives I don't think 2 pair will call as much as $19, I'm thinking that 2 pair might call 1/4 to 1/3 pot $10-$15 but if you go too small you open the door to a bluff shove repping the flush. However, as is pointed out his aggression is so low that's not really in his playbook.
Unfortunately I was using a new HUD and didn't notice the the really low aggression stat. I actually tanked too long in the end and saw too many monster flushes and checked behind. I was disappointed in myself as I rarely miss a value bet now.. and again a little bit of the hesitancy comes from it being a shot take and that I'm not great at folding when I've made the nuts on the turn. It's tough to make the nuts and even tougher to let it go on the river. I've had half a dozen hands very recently where I've had nut straights and flushes on the turn only to see the board pair/flush on the river and paid off better hands including quads (twice). I only found a fold about once in 6 hands
So I know the answer is to bet enough that a raise is only coming from a nutted hand but I'm still not good enough at putting it all together in real time and finding the fold button..

Fwiw the villain had AK which explains the turn call as he made tptk on the turn but I doubt he calls much on the end but hey you never know Ricky and I have both bewilderingly had villains call it off with complete air recently

Click to expand...

Yeah, I was going to say AK as well, but wanted to give him a little more credit. But it was obv. def a possibility as well.

Any ways, 18-19/fold is the way I'd be going there.

Alright John here is a fun one.

PokerStars - $0.10 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: $8.18 (VPIP: 6.67, PFR: 3.33, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 30)
Hero (SB): $13.53
BB: $10.25 (VPIP: 16.67, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 6)
UTG: $9.49
MP: $12.77 (VPIP: 20.36, PFR: 15.57, 3Bet Preflop: 1.54, Hands: 171)
CO: $17.77

Hero posts SB $0.05, BB posts BB $0.10

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.15) Hero has A:diamond: T:club:

fold, MP raises to $0.30, fold, fold, Hero raises to $1.00, fold, MP calls $0.70

Flop: ($2.10, 2 players) Q:diamond: J:spade: 9:spade:
Hero bets $1.60, MP calls $1.60

Turn: ($5.30, 2 players) 6:spade:
Hero bets $2.78, MP calls $2.78

River: ($10.86, 2 players) K:heart:
Hero bets $8.15 and is all-in, MP calls $7.39 and is all-in

Some Hands from tonight Standard or NOT

Hand 1 As i dont have any clubs do I NIT fold on Turn
poker stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $21.26 (212.6 bb)
BB: $9.27 (92.7 bb) 25/25 6.0AG 4 hands
Hero (UTG): $10.73 (107.3 bb)
MP: $14 (140 bb)
CO: $10.56 (105.6 bb)
BTN: $17.55 (175.5 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q Q
Hero raises to $0.30, 4 folds, BB raises to $0.95, Hero calls $0.65

Flop: ($1.95) 3 6 5 (2 players)
BB bets $1.30, Hero calls $1.30

Turn: ($4.55) T (2 players)
BB bets $2.17, Hero calls $2.17

River: ($8.89) K (2 players)
BB bets $4.85 and is all-in, Hero folds

Hand 2 Turn is like WTF

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $5.20 (52 bb)
BB: $10.85 (108.5 bb)
UTG: $11.99 (119.9 bb) 42/42 5Ag 13 Hands
MP: $10 (100 bb)
Hero (CO): $10.72 (107.2 bb)
BTN: $14.26 (142.6 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K A
UTG raises to $0.30, MP folds, Hero raises to $1.05, 3 folds, UTG calls $0.75

Flop: ($2.25) A 8 4 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $1.48, UTG calls $1.48

Turn: ($5.21) T (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $3.43, UTG raises to $9.46, Hero calls $4.76 and is all-in

Hand 3 think i misplayed hand maybe Check Raise at some point??

I actually mislicked PREFLOP meant to raise 30c

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $10 (100 bb)
BB: $10.78 (107.8 bb)
Hero (UTG): $10.27 (102.7 bb)
MP: $11.36 (113.6 bb)
CO: $36.95 (369.5 bb) 50/50 G 2.0 3BET 40 9 hands
BTN: $5.13 (51.3 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T Q
Hero raises to $0.20, MP folds, CO raises to $0.90, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.70

Flop: ($1.95) 5 8 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $0.83, Hero calls $0.83

Turn: ($3.61) 3 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $1.55, Hero calls $1.55

River: ($6.71) 3 (2 players)
Hero ??

EDIT Obvious shove on River as they prob gonna check back all ACes and Overpairs

QQ
Well we don't have any information about the player so a fold seems prudent as played but I wouldn't be happy about it.
You know how wide people can raise from the blinds in 6 max we need to test this hand preflop or on the flop.
I probably 4bet pre gii if necessary or raise the flop when I'm only beaten by KK AA or an unlikely set.
I don't know why you play in these games with no information....You have been studying in this thread for a few years now, you will have more experience in identifying the player types and interpretation of the hud stats. That is your edge against the majority of players, but playing without information completely negates the advantages you have.

AK.
After he calls the flop in a raised pot I'm putting him on a good ace a set or a flush draw. On the turn I'm pot controlling and taking the free card offered to draw to the nuts.
If he has AQ he's usually only going to call two streets, if you check the turn he's more likely to pay on the river.

QT, I'm folding pre, Id want 150bb here to continue
As played yes a decent sized river bet most over pairs should call here.

QQ: turn bet bothers me... id prolly shove

AK: take freecard

Aces2w1n said:

Alright John here is a fun one.

PokerStars - $0.10 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: $8.18 (VPIP: 6.67, PFR: 3.33, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 30)
Hero (SB): $13.53
BB: $10.25 (VPIP: 16.67, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 6)
UTG: $9.49
MP: $12.77 (VPIP: 20.36, PFR: 15.57, 3Bet Preflop: 1.54, Hands: 171)
CO: $17.77

Hero posts SB $0.05, BB posts BB $0.10

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.15) Hero has A♦ T♣

fold, MP raises to $0.30, fold, fold, Hero raises to $1.00, fold, MP calls $0.70

Flop: ($2.10, 2 players) Q♦ J♠ 9♠
Hero bets $1.60, MP calls $1.60

Turn: ($5.30, 2 players) 6♠
Hero bets $2.78, MP calls $2.78

River: ($10.86, 2 players) K♥
Hero bets $8.15 and is all-in, MP calls $7.39 and is all-in

Click to expand...

C/f flop. I think you'd need to bet something like $1ish range and need a fold most of the time for it to be a profitable c-bet. I think between his raising range and calling range here you're just burning money by c-betting.

As played, c/f the turn. As played, River shove at this price is fine. I think every street isn't played correct, even pre-flop I think probably fold vs. this kind of opponent is better than call or 3-bet. River you got right though.

Do you understand why you shouldn't be betting the flop or turn? I here you saying a lot about how aggressive you're being in these games, as if it's a point of pride. Make sure you understand how to be selective aggressive. You don't want to bet just for the sake of betting.

John A said:

Do you understand why you shouldn't be betting the flop or turn? I here you saying a lot about how aggressive you're being in these games, as if it's a point of pride. Make sure you understand how to be selective aggressive. You don't want to bet just for the sake of betting.

Click to expand...

I struggle with this when people say you need to be more aggressive if my AG% was mid 30s, so I'd tend to be aggressive in the wrong spots.

Above hand I agree about not betting flop or turn as you good equity with your draw and over card and if you bet and get raised you dont get to realise that equity

John A said:

C/f flop. I think you'd need to bet something like $1ish range and need a fold most of the time for it to be a profitable c-bet. I think between his raising range and calling range here you're just burning money by c-betting.

As played, c/f the turn. As played, River shove at this price is fine. I think every street isn't played correct, even pre-flop I think probably fold vs. this kind of opponent is better than call or 3-bet. River you got right though.

Do you understand why you shouldn't be betting the flop or turn? I here you saying a lot about how aggressive you're being in these games, as if it's a point of pride. Make sure you understand how to be selective aggressive. You don't want to bet just for the sake of betting.

Click to expand...

when you have 0 folds and it hits villains range?

3bet pre was because blocker and he 100% folds to 3bets.

I guess with Ax hands hes most likely going to have pocket pair somewhere in the middle which means he should have a set here in most cases.

if i bet and he raises or shoves im going allin with a bad price... im 4:1 hitting my card on flop... i shouldnt bet because i cant stand a raise on turn and ill only then see 1 card not 2 which makes it even worse.


and A is probably dirty or makes no different giving me a possible 8 outs... unless he has kk which even hurts more


yeah was too fancy for my own good ... i see its horrible ugh! thanks John

i wouldnt mind some training on the button being 3bet frm the blinds.... headsup if i call etc

Figaroo2 said:

QQ
Well we don't have any information about the player so a fold seems prudent as played but I wouldn't be happy about it.
You know how wide people can raise from the blinds in 6 max we need to test this hand preflop or on the flop.
I probably 4bet pre gii if necessary or raise the flop when I'm only beaten by KK AA or an unlikely set.
I don't know why you play in these games with no information....You have been studying in this thread for a few years now, you will have more experience in identifying the player types and interpretation of the hud stats. That is your edge against the majority of players, but playing without information completely negates the advantages you have.

AK.
After he calls the flop in a raised pot I'm putting him on a good ace a set or a flush draw. On the turn I'm pot controlling and taking the free card offered to draw to the nuts.
If he has AQ he's usually only going to call two streets, if you check the turn he's more likely to pay on the river.

QT, I'm folding pre, Id want 150bb here to continue
As played yes a decent sized river bet most over pairs should call here.

Click to expand...

Aces2w1n said:

QQ: turn bet bothers me... id prolly shove

AK: take freecard

Click to expand...

Although I did end up losing all 3 pots, I posted to see If i could have done anything different irrespective of results

QQ Hand, planned on calling any shove except Ace or King, as AK was most likely Holding along with TT+. Wasnt sure If i should have shoved over his Turn Bet.

K A Reason I bet the Turn was because i wsa prepared to call a Shove as I had Nut Flush draw, just in case they had Set or 2 pairs, otherwise may have checked back Turn and Called a River Bet if they Bet and if they checked Value bet River and puked if they shoved LOL

They actually Had Ac6c when they shoved and had 5% Equity and hit the River with 6 Spades

T Q - Wasnt sure whether best play was to keep calling or maybe check raise Flop or Turn. When I did hit, I did put him on alot of overpairs or a Stubborn AK/AQ.

Unfortunately they had 4h5h for the boat so the 3 was a killer.

Aces2w1n said:

i wouldnt mind some training on the button being 3bet frm the blinds.... headsup if i call etc

Click to expand...

+1

Calling Ranges vs Chip Stacks.
How hands play differently with differing stack Sizes

i.e. Folding ATo when deep but calling or Shoving when Short and calling hands like 89s or 55/66 when deep but folding when les than 100BB

rhombus said:

I struggle with this when people say you need to be more aggressive if my AG% was mid 30s, so I'd tend to be aggressive in the wrong spots.

Above hand I agree about not betting flop or turn as you good equity with your draw and over card and if you bet and get raised you dont get to realise that equity

Click to expand...

Yes... and that's just a matter of experience and making sure you're really thinking through your spots and range. Betting the flop and turn on that last hand don't fold out enough hands to make it profitable vs. checking. It's about flop texture and range. Opponent tendencies are of course important as well, but aggression decisions have a lot to do w/ texture and range primarily.

Aces2w1n said:

i wouldnt mind some training on the button being 3bet frm the blinds.... headsup if i call etc

Click to expand...

Sure... we've talked about this before.

What about posting some hands in these spots, and I can do a video and talk about some of the considerations in calling, 4-betting, etc.

I posted the full hand in my thread but opinions sought on turn

Pacific, $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $62.66 (125.3 bb)
BB: $52.31 (104.6 bb)
UTG+1: $27.54 (55.1 bb)
UTG+2: $50.98 (102 bb)
MP1: $55.32 (110.6 bb)
MP2: $51.52 (103 bb)
MP3: $21.94 (43.9 bb)
CO: $27.60 (55.2 bb)VPIP: 27, PFR: 9, 3B: 4, AF: 1.4, Hands: 191
Hero (BTN): $71.99 (144 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with K K
3 folds, MP2 raises to $1.50, MP3 folds, CO calls $1.50, Hero raises to $5.25, 3 folds, CO calls $3.75

Flop: ($12.75) 8 3 3 (2 players)
CO bets $5.50!!, (some sort of probe bet, not sure what he's doing here, difficult to see a hand with a 3 or 8 here, I was thinking 99-QQ here for the villain) Hero calls $5.50

Turn: ($23.75) Q (2 players)
CO checks, Hero? Villain has 16 or so behind, just put him all in?

Figaroo2 said:

Pacific, $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $62.66 (125.3 bb)
BB: $52.31 (104.6 bb)
UTG+1: $27.54 (55.1 bb)
UTG+2: $50.98 (102 bb)
MP1: $55.32 (110.6 bb)
MP2: $51.52 (103 bb)
MP3: $21.94 (43.9 bb)
CO: $27.60 (55.2 bb)VPIP: 27, PFR: 9, 3B: 4, AF: 1.4, Hands: 191
Hero (BTN): $71.99 (144 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with K

K

3 folds, MP2 raises to $1.50, MP3 folds, CO calls $1.50, Hero raises to $5.25, 3 folds, CO calls $3.75

Flop: ($12.75) 8

3

3

(2 players)
CO bets $5.50!!, (some sort of probe bet, not sure what he's doing here, difficult to see a hand with a 3 or 8 here, I was thinking 99-QQ here for the villain) Hero calls $5.50

Turn: ($23.75) Q

(2 players)
CO checks, Hero? Villain has 16 or so behind, just put him all in?

Click to expand...

in this book i been reading that spot on the turn... the check is polarized he either has top or air.

it suggests you check behind

if he bets you shove and if you check you check

river i ill need to rehash

Figaroo2 said:

Pacific, $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $62.66 (125.3 bb)
BB: $52.31 (104.6 bb)
UTG+1: $27.54 (55.1 bb)
UTG+2: $50.98 (102 bb)
MP1: $55.32 (110.6 bb)
MP2: $51.52 (103 bb)
MP3: $21.94 (43.9 bb)
CO: $27.60 (55.2 bb)VPIP: 27, PFR: 9, 3B: 4, AF: 1.4, Hands: 191
Hero (BTN): $71.99 (144 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with K

K

3 folds, MP2 raises to $1.50, MP3 folds, CO calls $1.50, Hero raises to $5.25, 3 folds, CO calls $3.75

Flop: ($12.75) 8

3

3

(2 players)
CO bets $5.50!!, (some sort of probe bet, not sure what he's doing here, difficult to see a hand with a 3 or 8 here, I was thinking 99-QQ here for the villain) Hero calls $5.50

Turn: ($23.75) Q

(2 players)
CO checks, Hero? Villain has 16 or so behind, just put him all in?

Click to expand...

in this book i been reading that spot on the turn... the check is polarized he either has top or air.

it suggests you check if he checks and do what he does

check is a trap or giveup. so if hes giving up no point in betting hes beat but i think it was only when this turn card was a draw.

to elaborate on the trap checking means he isnt afraid of a free card here.
so when he leads hes weaker and cant handle the draw coming out

sorry new and learning this hope it made sense

Figaroo2 said:

Pacific, $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $62.66 (125.3 bb)
BB: $52.31 (104.6 bb)
UTG+1: $27.54 (55.1 bb)
UTG+2: $50.98 (102 bb)
MP1: $55.32 (110.6 bb)
MP2: $51.52 (103 bb)
MP3: $21.94 (43.9 bb)
CO: $27.60 (55.2 bb)VPIP: 27, PFR: 9, 3B: 4, AF: 1.4, Hands: 191
Hero (BTN): $71.99 (144 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with K

K

3 folds, MP2 raises to $1.50, MP3 folds, CO calls $1.50, Hero raises to $5.25, 3 folds, CO calls $3.75

Flop: ($12.75) 8

3

3

(2 players)
CO bets $5.50!!, (some sort of probe bet, not sure what he's doing here, difficult to see a hand with a 3 or 8 here, I was thinking 99-QQ here for the villain) Hero calls $5.50

Turn: ($23.75) Q

(2 players)
CO checks, Hero? Villain has 16 or so behind, just put him all in?

Click to expand...

A standard spot we talk about all of the time. The most important thing on the turn is... how aggressive is your opponent? And the main reason it's important is for what I'll call a Polished Poker Meme now. How's that.

PPM: If I check here, is my opponent aggressive enough to bluff the river (or next street)? If the answer is no, and you're still ahead of your opponents range, your best to just get it in.

Because if your image is seen as being aggressive, most people won't check the turn and bluff the river. If they are aggressive, they will bluff the turn.

So the variables for value would be:

Opponent aggressive (OA), My Image as aggressive (MA)

OA=true, MA=false = check turn
OA=true, MA=true = check turn in marginal equity spots, bet when decently ahead.
OA=false, MA = false = check in marginal spots, bet when decently ahead
OA=false, MA = true = bet turn

John A said:

A standard spot we talk about all of the time. The most important thing on the turn is... how aggressive is your opponent? And the main reason it's important is for what I'll call a Polished Poker Meme now. How's that.

PPM: If I check here, is my opponent aggressive enough to bluff the river (or next street)? If the answer is no, and you're still ahead of your opponents range, your best to just get it in.

Because if your image is seen as being aggressive, most people won't check the turn and bluff the river. If they are aggressive, they will bluff the turn.

So the variables for value would be:

Opponent aggressive (OA), My Image as aggressive (MA)

OA=true, MA=false = check turn
OA=true, MA=true = check turn in marginal equity spots, bet when decently ahead.
OA=false, MA = false = check in marginal spots, bet when decently ahead
OA=false, MA = true = bet turn

Click to expand...

EEEEK using those calcualtions you could program excel to play poker LOL

John A said:

A standard spot we talk about all of the time. The most important thing on the turn is... how aggressive is your opponent? And the main reason it's important is for what I'll call a Polished Poker Meme now. How's that.

PPM: If I check here, is my opponent aggressive enough to bluff the river (or next street)? If the answer is no, and you're still ahead of your opponents range, your best to just get it in.

Because if your image is seen as being aggressive, most people won't check the turn and bluff the river. If they are aggressive, they will bluff the turn.

So the variables for value would be:

Opponent aggressive (OA), My Image as aggressive (MA)

OA=true, MA=false = check turn
OA=true, MA=true = check turn in marginal equity spots, bet when decently ahead.
OA=false, MA = false = check in marginal spots, bet when decently ahead
OA=false, MA = true = bet turn

Click to expand...

Thanks John very helpful..
Well he isn't very aggressive with an AF of 1.4 but why does a non aggressive player lead here on this board other than to find out where he stands?
Because I thought he had a mid pair here I put him all in but in hinsight JJ TT probably folds with the arrival of the Q and we only get called by AQ or better.
Anyway it mattered not, he called with better and we spiked another King on the river.

thanks john