Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

Figaroo2 said:

Similar spot again with a small pair, WTSD is a little high though.
Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $7.99 (79.9 bb)
BB: $10 (100 bb)VPIP: 15, PFR: 12, 3B: 3, AF: 1.0, Hands: 117 35% WTSD
UTG+1: $12.99 (129.9 bb)
UTG+2: $2.23 (22.3 bb)
MP1: $13.23 (132.3 bb)
MP2: $10.27 (102.7 bb)
MP3: $10 (100 bb)
CO: $4.25 (42.5 bb)
Hero (BTN): $20.88 (208.8 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with 3♥ 3♣
6 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, SB folds, BB calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.65) 4♥ 2♠ J♠ (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.31, BB calls $0.31

Turn: ($1.27) 2♣ (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

River: ($1.27) K♣ (2 players)
BB checks, Hero?
The K is a nice card to rep and an overbet here puts pressure on nearly all his flop calling range. Slightly concerned by his stickyness but I think the river is scary enough. Thoughts on an overbet here?

I do actually only have 38 hand examples in 12,500 hands this month (full ring mainly with me) where its unopened to me on the button, I open raised and we saw the river card. This is clearly going to be more of a 6max thing.
The ranges regs are calling in the BB in these 38 were pretty strong, obviously the fish were much wider.

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I think villians pre flop flat calling range here is all small to medium pocket pairs, suited connecters, broadways. This range on the flop really does not change much when he calls again (suited connectors are probably playing fit or fold though here) but he will be calling with any over cards and all pairs here IMO.
I do not mind checking back the turn but we are somewhat turning our cards face up and its really looking like a weakish pair or just bluffy steal attempt.
For this reason I feel there is some argument for another barrel. Think about how hard it is to remain sticky OOP with weak holdings in these types of situations when facing barrels. I think we get more folds of hands that are beating us (pairs of 4+) on the turn than we do on your check turn bet river line and even if we don't get a fold and a good card for our range comes on the river we have a much more believable story to tell when we do decide to barrell the river.
In saying all that it is turning our 3s pretty much into a bluff. So as I said I really do not mind the check back either but I think its something to consider.
Anyways, as played the K is good for a range and a big bet does make a call hard. But it must be a decent size bet (pot or larger). With a line like this I think anything near a pot size bet makes it difficult for all his medium to weak hands to call and even putting a lot of pressure on Jx. Any normal value looking raise (80% pot or less) at these limits get called down with medium pairs and Jx too often here I think.

Jackle
This is why im looking to set up more button river overbets.
Recent study material released by John. The keys are btn v bb, versus typical multitabling reg, keep pot small and then slight overbet steal.

I haven't incorporated any over bets into my game it wasnt' really that common 15 years ago.I'm back to basics right now :driver:

iPoker - €0.50 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

Hero (MP): 244.64 BB
CO: 67.62 BB (VPIP: 29.88, PFR: 16.57, 3Bet Preflop: 9.76, Hands: 345)
BTN: 97.72 BB (VPIP: 47.83, PFR: 13.04, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 23)
SB: 110.4 BB (VPIP: 28.23, PFR: 20.48, 3Bet Preflop: 9.52, Hands: 1,631)
BB: 124.38 BB (VPIP: 38.46, PFR: 6.41, 3Bet Preflop: 2.56, Hands: 78)
UTG: 167.74 BB (VPIP: 27.60, PFR: 21.91, 3Bet Preflop: 4.31, Hands: 738)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Kd Kc
UTG raises to 3 BB, Hero raises to 10 BB, fold, BTN calls 10 BB, fold, fold, UTG calls 7 BB

Flop : (31.5 BB, 3 players) Jh Jd 6s
UTG checks, Hero bets 12 BB, fold, UTG calls 12 BB

Turn : (55.5 BB, 2 players) 5h
UTG bets 31 BB, Hero calls 31 BB

River : (117.5 BB, 2 players) 8c
UTG bets 62 BB, fold

UTG wins 111.64 BB


thoughts on this?
His 3b is very low but fold to 3b is - 68%
but fold to cbet flop on 3b - 3/3
WTSD - 28%, WSD - 47%
But I've been very aggro on this table, 3b - 15%
also BTN is a station. Should I 3b bigger cause stacks are deep here. But I want the BTN to come along as well.
I'd mostly check these spots on flop though.

I would say it looks ok with KK, In a hu pot i would discard Jx from villains range along with 55-66.But because Btn called it means villain can have 55-66 and AJs possibly even a slow played AA .I think you played it well.

Figaroo2 said:

Jackle
This is why im looking to set up more button river overbets.
Recent study material released by John. The keys are btn v bb, versus typical multitabling reg, keep pot small and then slight overbet steal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqoRT1VLFZQ

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I like the play just was going through ideas of other possible lines and a thought process throughout the hand. I think the play is probably long run +EV in this spot but very villain dependent, especially in higher levels, as it looks somewhat bluffy so I feel many non believers can sometimes find a call with mid pairs/weakish made hands.

Figaroo2 said:

Similar spot again with a small pair, WTSD is a little high though.
Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $7.99 (79.9 bb)
BB: $10 (100 bb)VPIP: 15, PFR: 12, 3B: 3, AF: 1.0, Hands: 117 35% WTSD
UTG+1: $12.99 (129.9 bb)
UTG+2: $2.23 (22.3 bb)
MP1: $13.23 (132.3 bb)
MP2: $10.27 (102.7 bb)
MP3: $10 (100 bb)
CO: $4.25 (42.5 bb)
Hero (BTN): $20.88 (208.8 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with 3♥ 3♣
6 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, SB folds, BB calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.65) 4♥ 2♠ J♠ (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.31, BB calls $0.31

Turn: ($1.27) 2♣ (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

River: ($1.27) K♣ (2 players)
BB checks, Hero?
The K is a nice card to rep and an overbet here puts pressure on nearly all his flop calling range. Slightly concerned by his stickyness but I think the river is scary enough. Thoughts on an overbet here?

I do actually only have 38 hand examples in 12,500 hands this month (full ring mainly with me) where its unopened to me on the button, I open raised and we saw the river card. This is clearly going to be more of a 6max thing.
The ranges regs are calling in the BB in these 38 were pretty strong, obviously the fish were much wider.

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Because of stickiness, he might hero call with the busted spades, but I still like a slight overbet. I don't hate a check here either. What did you end up doing?

John A said:

Because of stickiness, he might hero call with the busted spades, but I still like a slight overbet. I don't hate a check here either. What did you end up doing?

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As I had some SDV versus busted spades I checked and lost to TT. A hand Im a little surprised wasnt 3bet. So an overbet would have put pressure on him and its just whether or not he believes we hit the King on the river. I reckon he's calling here at least a third of the time based on his hand strength and wtsd% of 35 maybe even a little more lets say 40%. Hes certainly calling all smaller bets up to half pot. It would need to be full pot or better and the slight overbet might just make it +ev
So risk / risk÷reward 1.3 / 1.3+1.27 = he has to fold 47% for us to breakeven. So it looks close.

Figaroo2 said:

As I had some SDV versus busted spades I checked and lost to TT. A hand Im a little surprised wasnt 3bet. So an overbet would have put pressure on him and its just whether or not he believes we hit the King on the river. I reckon he's calling here at least a third of the time based on his hand strength and wtsd% of 35 maybe even a little more lets say 40%. Hes certainly calling all smaller bets up to half pot. It would need to be full pot or better and the slight overbet might just make it +ev
So risk / risk÷reward 1.3 / 1.3+1.27 = he has to fold 47% for us to breakeven. So it looks close.

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Yeah, just over pot would have worked over 50% of the time if we knew his exact hand (If I had to guess, probably 65%+ of the time). Versus his range and his "stickiness" (assuming that's a large hand sample), then it would be close but still +EV.

John A said:

Yeah, just over pot would have worked over 50% of the time if we knew his exact hand (If I had to guess, probably 65%+ of the time). Versus his range and his "stickiness" (assuming that's a large hand sample), then it would be close but still +EV.

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John,
Your pm is full and cannot accept new messages?
I'll try again later great thread by the way!

SouthparkSith said:

John,
Your pm is full and cannot accept new messages?
I'll try again later great thread by the way!

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Cleared some space. I lose track sometimes. You can try again.

SouthparkSith said:

John,
Your pm is full and cannot accept new messages?
I'll try again later great thread by the way!

Click to expand...

Sorry, forum didn't email me about PM. Just responded.

BolekTM said:

Guys i know when you wanna be abest in poker you must be Smart, use tactcis read opponets but id only poker and just understand this

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I love the post to get free roll access posts.

huh?

Anyone playing tournaments lately?

And a site note, does anyone want some info on solvers as I'm thinking about doing some video content there.

I downloaded the free version of piosolver but havent been able to get my head around it. Not that Ive tried that hard. So basic input in setting up and using the software would be helpful. I cant imagine im alone in this but...yeah maybe im just a dumbass.
Anyway... really struggled to range villain in the following hand and wanted to raise on the end but couldnt pull the trigger. Mainly because his bet sizing looked like value rather than bluffy.

Pacific, $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players

SB: $59.83 (119.7 bb)VPIP: 14, PFR: 11, 3B: 4, AF: 2.0, Hands: 674
BB: $24.34 (48.7 bb)
UTG+2: $48.25 (96.5 bb)
Hero (MP1): $54 (108 bb)
MP2: $50 (100 bb)
MP3: $29.26 (58.5 bb)
CO: $66.83 (133.7 bb)
BTN: $73.38 (146.8 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 4♥ 4♦
UTG+2 folds, Hero raises to $1.50, 4 folds, SB calls $1.25, BB folds

Flop: ($3.50) 2♣ 5♣ 6♥ (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($3.50) 4♠ (2 players)
SB bets $2.33, Hero calls $2.33

River: ($8.16) J♠ (2 players)
SB bets $5.44, Hero calls $5.44

Figaroo2 said:

I downloaded the free version of piosolver but havent been able to get my head around it. Not that Ive tried that hard. So basic input in setting up and using the software would be helpful. I cant imagine im alone in this but...yeah maybe im just a dumbass.
Anyway... really struggled to range villain in the following hand and wanted to raise on the end but couldnt pull the trigger. Mainly because his bet sizing looked like value rather than bluffy.

Pacific, $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players

SB: $59.83 (119.7 bb)VPIP: 14, PFR: 11, 3B: 4, AF: 2.0, Hands: 674
BB: $24.34 (48.7 bb)
UTG+2: $48.25 (96.5 bb)
Hero (MP1): $54 (108 bb)
MP2: $50 (100 bb)
MP3: $29.26 (58.5 bb)
CO: $66.83 (133.7 bb)
BTN: $73.38 (146.8 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 4♥ 4♦
UTG+2 folds, Hero raises to $1.50, 4 folds, SB calls $1.25, BB folds

Flop: ($3.50) 2♣ 5♣ 6♥ (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($3.50) 4♠ (2 players)
SB bets $2.33, Hero calls $2.33

River: ($8.16) J♠ (2 players)
SB bets $5.44, Hero calls $5.44

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Why not bet flop? As played, on the turn he's going to have a lot of air and some draws. Calling is fine since he's tight, and same w/ the river. I'd put him on a lot of Ax, AJ, flush draws, air. Probably not many straight draws especially after the river.

As far as solvers go, yeah, I debate about the whole thing in terms of how much effort I should take explaining them because there's some major problems. But I see this all the time in the online poker community. One pro says X is what you need to do, and everyone does X, without really thinking about it.

Really I could give everyone real time GTO strategy in about three sentences. Check your top pair hands sometimes. Bet your bottom pair hands sometimes. Don't ever always do X against people you have history at.


I just don't ever hear pro players saying, "I think he checks his weak top pair hands here 60% of the time." It just doesn't happen, and really we don't even need to know that. I think in respect to if analyzing GTO strategy can make you a more thoughtful poker player, then it's good. But I also suspect it's some kind of magic safety blanket for bad and mediocre poker players to have a static solution spoon fed to them. If they have some "solved" answer, then they'll feel better about their play.

For a VERY LONG time in online poker, people would just auto bet top pair hands. If you've watched any of my early poker training videos, I was an outlier (at the time on places like 2+2) because I said, "no... don't do that." You need to be sometimes checking your top pair hands, and usually top pair weak kickers are ideal hands for that. You wouldn't believe the push back I got from "top online pros" at the time about that strategy. Now, 10+ years, it's commonly accepted.

I can go over and do a simple training vid though with something like PIO solver free. I still don't own one myself, so I can do turn/river solutions if someone is interested. Actually I do have one that was given to me by a developer, simple post fop.

I'll see what the response is first before I commit.

In the 44 hand I checked flop because its difficult for me to rep that board and it hits the calling range hard of a 14/11 calling in the SB.
We can also take the free card here and not get blown off our equity. If we bet and get raised we have to fold.

I mean he's going to be really pair heavy there and I just don't see any pair folding the flop. If he also checks the turn as well I'm taking that as a green light to bet turn and bluff hard on the river.
As it happened we improved. He had 22 and was pushing his set for value on the end.
He was probably looking to check raise the flop so we would have lost the hand betting the flop.
If the flop was 25 with a 9TJQK we would have stacked him set over set. A little annoying, I just felt there was too much 33 A3s there the way he was pushing.

Figaroo2 said:

I downloaded the free version of piosolver but havent been able to get my head around it. Not that Ive tried that hard. So basic input in setting up and using the software would be helpful. I cant imagine im alone in this but...yeah maybe im just a dumbass.
Anyway... really struggled to range villain in the following hand and wanted to raise on the end but couldnt pull the trigger. Mainly because his bet sizing looked like value rather than bluffy.

Pacific, $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players

SB: $59.83 (119.7 bb)VPIP: 14, PFR: 11, 3B: 4, AF: 2.0, Hands: 674
BB: $24.34 (48.7 bb)
UTG+2: $48.25 (96.5 bb)
Hero (MP1): $54 (108 bb)
MP2: $50 (100 bb)
MP3: $29.26 (58.5 bb)
CO: $66.83 (133.7 bb)
BTN: $73.38 (146.8 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 4♥ 4♦
UTG+2 folds, Hero raises to $1.50, 4 folds, SB calls $1.25, BB folds

Flop: ($3.50) 2♣ 5♣ 6♥ (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($3.50) 4♠ (2 players)
SB bets $2.33, Hero calls $2.33

River: ($8.16) J♠ (2 players)
SB bets $5.44, Hero calls $5.44

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I probably bet flop here. As played I think call turn call river is fine as board kind of gross for our set and A3s, 78s plays similar to this and is right in his Sb range. He also has a ton of air with missed draws or one pair hands.

Figaroo2 said:

In the 44 hand I checked flop because its difficult for me to rep that board and it hits the calling range hard of a 14/11 calling in the SB.
We can also take the free card here and not get blown off our equity. If we bet and get raised we have to fold.

I mean he's going to be really pair heavy there and I just don't see any pair folding the flop. If he also checks the turn as well I'm taking that as a green light to bet turn and bluff hard on the river.
As it happened we improved. He had 22 and was pushing his set for value on the end.
He was probably looking to check raise the flop so we would have lost the hand betting the flop.
If the flop was 25 with a 9TJQK we would have stacked him set over set. A little annoying, I just felt there was too much 33 A3s there the way he was pushing.

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Mmm, he'll have an even amount of combos between paired and unpaired hands roughly. So bet for value since you have lots of bad turns and rivers, and then you can check the turn if need be. If he raises, you can easily fold. I think it's a worse plan to have the nitty player take control of the hand vs. a range you still beat.

"He probably would have"... or maybe he "probably would have check/called" and now you built a bigger pot when you did hit your miracle two outer versus an under set with a small pair. Think that happens like once ever blood moon...

To barrel or not to barrel?

Pacific, $0.10/$0.20 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $6.39 (32 bb)
Hero (BB): $40.16 (200.8 bb)
UTG+1: $20.83 (104.2 bb)
UTG+2: $24.70 (123.5 bb)
MP1: $26.33 (131.7 bb)
MP2: $21.51 (107.6 bb)
MP3: $20 (100 bb)
CO: $66.44 (332.2 bb)VPIP: 14, PFR: 10, 3B: 3, AF: 3.7, Hands: 817
BTN: $18.69 (93.5 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 4♦ 6♦
5 folds, CO raises to $0.60, BTN calls $0.60, SB folds, Hero calls $0.40

Flop: ($1.90) 5♦ 5♠ 7♦ (3 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $1.26, BTN folds, Hero raises to $3.87, CO calls $2.61

Turn: ($9.64) J♠ (2 players)
Hero?
Firstly I think I should have raised a bigger on the flop bearing in mind how deep we are, but what do we do now? Villain is tighter than average.
I had planned to barrel all three streets here, but I'm not convinced this villain will lay down an overpair even to a shove if all the obvious draws miss. I started to regret having raised flop into such a tight player. Thoughts appreciated?

Figaroo2 said:

Pacific, $0.10/$0.20 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

SB: $6.39 (32 bb)
Hero (BB): $40.16 (200.8 bb)
UTG+1: $20.83 (104.2 bb)
UTG+2: $24.70 (123.5 bb)
MP1: $26.33 (131.7 bb)
MP2: $21.51 (107.6 bb)
MP3: $20 (100 bb)
CO: $66.44 (332.2 bb)VPIP: 14, PFR: 10, 3B: 3, AF: 3.7, Hands: 817
BTN: $18.69 (93.5 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 4♦ 6♦
5 folds, CO raises to $0.60, BTN calls $0.60, SB folds, Hero calls $0.40

Flop: ($1.90) 5♦ 5♠ 7♦ (3 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $1.26, BTN folds, Hero raises to $3.87, CO calls $2.61

Turn: ($9.64) J♠ (2 players)
Hero?
Firstly I think I should have raised a bigger on the flop bearing in mind how deep we are, but what do we do now? Villain is tighter than average.
I had planned to barrel all three streets here, but I'm not convinced this villain will lay down an overpair even to a shove if all the obvious draws miss. I started to regret having raised flop into such a tight player. Thoughts appreciated?

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What's your check-raising range there though? I think considering you have some hands on your opponent, you should just check/call there. I don't hate the check-raise, you have a ton of equity, but the problem is what hands are you really doing that with there? I can't really see any hands other than what you have.

John A said:

What's your check-raising range there though? I think considering you have some hands on your opponent, you should just check/call there. I don't hate the check-raise, you have a ton of equity, but the problem is what hands are you really doing that with there? I can't really see any hands other than what you have.

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Yeah I agree, we are literally only checking raising here with 5x and combo diamond draws. And I think I prefer just to call flop with 5x anyway to give him another chance to bluff his overcards on the turn.
I think its check call on the flop and turn, we are going to have all the implied odds we need to call a chunky turn bet if necessary and then maybe bluff river if we whiff.
As soon as I raised flop I didn't like it.

Figaroo2 said:

Yeah I agree, we are literally only checking raising here with 5x and combo diamond draws. And I think I prefer just to call flop with 5x anyway to give him another chance to bluff his overcards on the turn.
I think its check call on the flop and turn, we are going to have all the implied odds we need to call a chunky turn bet if necessary and then maybe bluff river if we whiff.
As soon as I raised flop I didn't like it.

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Yeah, good analysis. It's good that you recognized that right away as well.

Hand at local game. UTG Villain unknown but seems kind of fishy/splashy. I am sitting with 105bb and Villain has around 85bb.

UTG villain opens to $15

We are MP with QcQd and 3bet $55
folds around UTG calls.

Flop
8h 9h 8d

UTG checks. I raise to 3/4 pot and villain calls.

Turn 3c

UTG checks and I raise to a bit over 1/2 pot and villain raises 3x my raise. (villain only has around 25/30bb behind at this point?)

Hero??