Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

mottotom27 · Jun 11, 2015

John A said:
I'm going to be focusing on a lot of pre-flop play in upcoming blogs. I have something half written now. People have so many more leaks in their pre-flop play than they think they do, and then are stuck in a break even or losing cycle and don't know why. It all starts with your first decision, and if the first one isn't extremely good, the rest won't generally fare much better.

look forward to it. yea preflop i feel is the most important part of the game to get right, sometimes i find people focus too much on close river decisions when really it's the early streets (preflop and on the flop) that you have to get right first. i've done a lot of work on my preflop game so i feel it's improved considerably recently, but i still feel there's a lot of room for me to improve

or3o1990 · Jun 11, 2015

John A said:
Well, in about 15 more years they'll say sugar is good for your brain, so just wait until then, and then start eating it again.

Yeah science and medicine seem to be that way.. A constant work in progress. Both of my parents are diabetic. So just like my poker game, my diet and health are always something I'm looking to learn more about and improve on.

I'm looking forward to preflop input. I feel like I'm pretty solid in this area but i guess we'll find out!

Figaroo2 · Jun 11, 2015

Preflop area where I still feel I need some work is from the blinds. Im still unsure about the best calling range against LP stealing. I know which hands to 3bet but there is that gray murky area where LP is wide and you want to just call some hands which match up well but which you don't want to 3bet.
I have been using my HM2 to look closely at my cold calling. Its obvious when you look at the difference between money made in unopened pots versus that made when calling, that calling should pretty much be a last resort for me especially out of position and with my lower aggression levels. Yet I still call too much from the BB when I see a late position opener with a 30%+ steal rate. Sometimes for me personally id just be better 3betting or folding from the blinds especially against regs.
Full ring I've dropped hands like AJ AT offsuit totally from EP. I have cut down all suited aces under AT back to at least highjack and CO and am set mining less from the blinds with 22 33 & 44 which im now 3betting or folding more. All the trouble broadways KJ KT QJ I have cut back to LP only and this is all helping.

mottotom27 · Jun 11, 2015

with defending blinds you simply cannot get away with just having a 3bet or fold strategy since then it makes you really easy to play against. either you'd be folding way too much or 3betting way too much if you did that. so you have to have a strategy that involves calling, from the big blind especially.

you're still gonna lose money by calling, but remember folding has an EV of -100bb/100 in the big blind so anything better than that is saving money. you wanna defend the widest range you can comfortably defend and whether you like it or not you have to include calling as part of your defense strategy, otherwise it's easy to exploit you.

Here's my default ranges for 3betting vs a 45% BTN open who folds to resteal around 2/3 of the time. and below is my calling range. this may not be optimal (hopefully John can give advice!) but i know it can't be too far off since it was based off what i've read in good books and articles

EDIT: this is vs a 3x button open. vs a 2.5x or 2x open you can defend much wider than this

Figaroo2 · Jun 11, 2015

I don't use flopzilla, are you 3betting all pairs here then including 22-55?. The weak end of the polarised range from Q6 down is weaker than I ever 3bet, Qs9 Q8s is about as low as I usually 3bet even against a 45% stealer. Remember I play almost exclusively FR not 6 max. I take it this is for 6 max. If it is can you run it for FR and skype me an email address.
I used to cold call about 18% in the big blind but lowered that to 13-14% but recently it has crept back up as I added steal into my hud and was getting a better handle on the stealers.
It all looks pretty good to me.

mottotom27 · Jun 11, 2015

22-55 is interesting, i've watched coaches play and i've seen some of them 3bet these hands as bluffs whereas others are very much against it. i personally choose not to 3bet them because i feel they don't play too well postflop so i just fold them

it doesn't make too much difference being full ring or 6max since it's still the same positions when everybody folds to the button. so vs a 45% button opener you should play the same way as you would in 6max

vs a 45% open, Q8s and Q9s are both pretty standard flats imo, easily strong enough so no need to 3bet bluff with them. you can arguably flat Q6s too profitably, but if you think it's too weak or aren't comfortable then add it to your 3bet bluff range. also vs a button minraise you should defend much wider than this, some say any 2 suited cards getting such good odds. vs a minraise you can also 3bet a wider value range with more suited broadways etc.

if you find you can't play hands like K7s profitably vs a steal then you probably are leaking postflop being OOP. playing OOP is tough but sometimes it can't be avoided so with practice you should get better at this

also big blind vs small blind is a special case where you want to defend the widest, make sure you defend more than half the deck

feel free to chat on skype if you want to discuss further

Figaroo2 · Jun 11, 2015

Im not sure you can treat 6 max and full ring the same except maybe in zoom. There is definitely a greater chance of running into a stronger hand in FR as more hands have been folded by the time it gets to the but and blinds.
Also with the small pairs Im always calling with them against weaker players who will stack off with tptk and overpairs. That makes hitting your set very profitable. As opposed to good players against whom it is very difficult to get paid oop. Speak later...

mottotom27 · Jun 11, 2015

Figaroo2 said:
There is definitely a greater chance of running into a stronger hand in FR as more hands have been folded by the time it gets to the but and blinds..

i read an article on this and apparently the difference these extra dead cards cause is so small that you can just ignore it. also sometimes the extra dead cards might be a high card (e.g. someone folds ATo from UTG), and also remember a 45% range is still a 45% range no matter what so you should play the same as you would vs a 45% range in 6max BTN vs blinds.

yea i will also call with small pocket pairs vs bad players to setmine but not against good regs, i'd much prefer flatting suited hands that have more playability.

John A · Jun 12, 2015

mottotom27 said:
with defending blinds you simply cannot get away with just having a 3bet or fold strategy since then it makes you really easy to play against. either you'd be folding way too much or 3betting way too much if you did that. so you have to have a strategy that involves calling, from the big blind especially.

you're still gonna lose money by calling, but remember folding has an EV of -100bb/100 in the big blind so anything better than that is saving money. you wanna defend the widest range you can comfortably defend and whether you like it or not you have to include calling as part of your defense strategy, otherwise it's easy to exploit you.

Here's my default ranges for 3betting vs a 45% BTN open who folds to resteal around 2/3 of the time. and below is my calling range. this may not be optimal (hopefully John can give advice!) but i know it can't be too far off since it was based off what i've read in good books and articles

EDIT: this is vs a 3x button open. vs a 2.5x or 2x open you can defend much wider than this

I don't agree with this at micro stakes. I'm not saying you shouldn't have any calling range. But like I advocate, take initiative more in these spots OOP vs playing passively. Once you're moving up past 25NL, then you need to include a more balanced calling range, and not as much 3-bet or fold. But at micro stakes, I think heavy on the fold, and reasonable on the 3-bet with some calling of strong hands in between. Are there players you're playing against where you go, yeah they have an unbalanced range here, I can exploit them? If you think that's happening a lot, then I'll eat my advice (and I'm not talking about noticing a high 3-bet % only).

So I see some micro stakes players 3-betting an open button with AJo/KJs. That's an example of hands I'd call with instead. The weaker the player too, then the wider you can deviate from a more 3-bet or fold strategy because you want to keep them in the pot, and play a smaller pre-flop pot. You start including hands like K9s into your calling range and even suited connectors.

I've looked at a lot of data in this area, and you'd think it should be easy to lose less than -100bb/100 with some of these hands, but most people can't.

mottotom27 · Jun 12, 2015

it's interesting you say this cos the last two coaches i spoke to suggested i do exactly the opposite. they said that "people not defending their blinds enough is one of the biggest leaks at the micros" and one of them said i should be defending even wider than i am doing. their reasoning being that it allows villains to steal really wide against you and exploit you for folding too much, and that it should be easy to lose less than -100bb/100 postflop. but i take your point that it's probably tough for a lot of micro players to achieve this since they have a weak OOP game postflop.

AJo i don't always 3bet but when villain steals 50% and defends to 3bets 40% (so they defend a 20% range overall) then there is some value in a 3bet since AJo is ahead of a 20% range? playability in 3bet pots may be another consideration too i guess

or3o1990 · Jun 12, 2015

mottotom27 said:
it's interesting you say this cos the last two coaches i spoke to suggested i do exactly the opposite. they said that "people not defending their blinds enough is one of the biggest leaks at the micros" and one of them said i should be defending even wider than i am doing. their reasoning being that it allows villains to steal really wide against you and exploit you for folding too much, and that it should be easy to lose less than -100bb/100 postflop. but i take your point that it's probably tough for a lot of micro players to achieve this since they have a weak OOP game postflop.

AJo i don't always 3bet but when villain steals 50% and defends to 3bets 40% (so they defend a 20% range overall) then there is some value in a 3bet since AJo is ahead of a 20% range? playability in 3bet pots may be another consideration too i guess

I lean more towards calling from the big blind with a pretty wide range. but only when the odds are favorable relative to the cards I'm holding. I usually don't three bet any of the quasi range because I don't like to play big pots oop with hands that are strong but often second best. Its so much easier to fold A3 than AJ when I hit an ace and the action is heavy.. As a result my 3b range from the blinds is probably pretty polarized to trash and strong hands..

I have a question about defending from the blinds. Is there ever a point when the odds just don't matter? If I'm getting 5:1 with 5h 10h folding against a co min raise and btn call is surely a mistake right?

Figaroo2 · Jun 13, 2015

Whether you call and defend or 3 bet, if definitely puts me off stealing when I see a villain in the bb with a high 3bet % or who I know defends a lot.
As a result I defend pretty robustly as early as I can after joining a table it definitely helps and gives you some walks
Just as an aside I had my best ever cash game session last night.

feeling much better

John A · Jun 13, 2015

mottotom27 said:
it's interesting you say this cos the last two coaches i spoke to suggested i do exactly the opposite. they said that "people not defending their blinds enough is one of the biggest leaks at the micros" and one of them said i should be defending even wider than i am doing. their reasoning being that it allows villains to steal really wide against you and exploit you for folding too much, and that it should be easy to lose less than -100bb/100 postflop. but i take your point that it's probably tough for a lot of micro players to achieve this since they have a weak OOP game postflop.

AJo i don't always 3bet but when villain steals 50% and defends to 3bets 40% (so they defend a 20% range overall) then there is some value in a 3bet since AJo is ahead of a 20% range? playability in 3bet pots may be another consideration too i guess

Exactly. Because in theory, they are correct. But the application is something completely different. I've looked at large amounts of data around this, so it's not something I'm guessing about. I'd assume they are thinking in terms of pure theory, without realizing that if you just bungle a few hands (which micro players will do more than higher stake players), it makes -100bb/100 start to look real attractive.

I could have sworn I've posted some stats about this on this thread or somewhere similar before. I'd go look some of this up on my old server but I'm in the middle of moving offices. I'll try my best to post some data though of average micro results with certain hand range break downs when CC from the big blind.

John A · Jun 13, 2015

or3o1990 said:
I lean more towards calling from the big blind with a pretty wide range. but only when the odds are favorable relative to the cards I'm holding. I usually don't three bet any of the quasi range because I don't like to play big pots oop with hands that are strong but often second best. Its so much easier to fold A3 than AJ when I hit an ace and the action is heavy.. As a result my 3b range from the blinds is probably pretty polarized to trash and strong hands..

I have a question about defending from the blinds. Is there ever a point when the odds just don't matter? If I'm getting 5:1 with 5h 10h folding against a co min raise and btn call is surely a mistake right?

Which is fine. I think this is an acceptable strategy at the micros.

As far as odds and your question. Pre-flop odds pretty much never matter. You're not playing limit poker. I'm still confused why people talk about pre-flop odds in no-limit poker if the money isn't all-in (not picking on you, I just hear it a lot). There's too many variables in no-limit poker to calculate what a profitable pre-flop call is. Is there anyone who's every done these computations? No... because it's impossible. If you're playing limit poker, this is possible because you know the max bet on every street and the odds of hitting your hand and winning at showdown against X range.

or3o1990 · Jun 13, 2015

John A said:
Which is fine. I think this is an acceptable strategy at the micros.

As far as odds and your question. Pre-flop odds pretty much never matter. You're not playing limit poker. I'm still confused why people talk about pre-flop odds in no-limit poker if the money isn't all-in (not picking on you, I just hear it a lot). There's too many variables in no-limit poker to calculate what a profitable pre-flop call is. Is there anyone who's every done these computations? No... because it's impossible. If you're playing limit poker, this is possible because you know the max bet on every street and the odds of hitting your hand and winning at showdown against X range.

Yeah I was under the impression that this would be a mistake. because if the co has AKs the btn has QJc and you have 510h and they only min bet you only have to win 19% of the time to break even but you're going to win nearly 24% of the time.. A marginal spot but the odds seem in your favor non the less. I probably play too many hands. I'd play two pokemon cards on the btn if I was getting the right price!

I posted in the converter support thread. I'm having a small issue.

mottotom27 · Jun 13, 2015

yea i do agree John, it makes sense that for the average reg at the micros they would lose less by folding than calling an "optimal" range. i think it's a good short term solution to do what you said.

i think the reason why other coaches i've spoken to have suggested to call "optimally" is they want to train you be more prepared for moving up and develop good habits so you're not just jumping into 50nl unprepared with no clue how to defend properly.

i think it all comes down to what your goals are, and whether or not the short term goal of making profit at micros outweighs the long term goal of developing good habits for moving up. i don't really know the answer, maybe you have more to say on this?

or3o1990 · Jun 13, 2015

mottotom27 said:
yea i do agree John, it makes sense that for the average reg at the micros they would lose less by folding than calling an "optimal" range. i think it's a good short term solution to do what you said.

i think the reason why other coaches i've spoken to have suggested to call "optimally" is they want to train you be more prepared for moving up and develop good habits so you're not just jumping into 50nl unprepared with no clue how to defend properly.

i think it all comes down to what your goals are, and whether or not the short term goal of making profit at micros outweighs the long term goal of developing good habits for moving up. i don't really know the answer, maybe you have more to say on this?

I can see how this would vary depending on the stakes for sure. My goal is to make as much money as my BR and skill will allow. I'm playing .5/1 currently and I've noticed a bit of a skill increase compared to .25/.50 but barely. So I'm definitely wanting to move up as soon as my BR is big enough.. GTO is a new concept for me but Bill Chen is next on my to read list after I've finished with the workbook.

John, at what stakes on Bovada would you say that there is a significant increase in the skill level of the players there? I'm just curious what I can expect in the future. Also, I'm going to buy the bovada HUD today. I'm excited but I'm a HUD noob though so any tips are appreciated!

Figaroo2 · Jun 13, 2015

Not sure about this one, any comments.
Just called on the flop to see if the 3rd player would hang around.
Lost some value but looked at the board but even with it being rainbow could see a lot of potentially awkward river cards.
Should we just call and let him potentially barrel here?

poker stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 7 Players

SB: $26.04 (104.2 bb)
BB: $25 (100 bb)
MP1: $25 (100 bb) 21/16/agg45% in 517 hands,, semi lag, cbets 80,50,33 down the streets
MP2: $37.13 (148.5 bb)
MP3: $56.10 (224.4 bb)
Hero (CO): $33.74 (135 bb)
BTN: $26.57 (106.3 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 3

3

MP1 raises to $0.75, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.75, BTN folds, SB calls $0.65, BB folds

Flop: ($2.50) 3

J

T

(3 players)
SB checks, MP1 bets $1.79, Hero calls $1.79, SB folds

Turn: ($6.08) 7

(2 players)
MP1 bets $3.50, Hero raises to $9.50, MP1 folds

Results: $13.08 pot ($0.59 rake)
Final Board: 3

J

T

7

MP1 mucked and lost (-$6.04 net)
Hero mucked 3

3

and won $12.49 ($6.45 net)

Figaroo2 · Jun 13, 2015

here is the session I mentioned

Just over 6buy ins at 25nl,

. generally found my fold button apropriately and backed into some good well disguised holdings. posted some of the hands in my thread.

or3o1990 · Jun 13, 2015

Figaroo2 said:
Not sure about this one, any comments.
Just called on the flop to see if the 3rd player would hang around.
Lost some value but looked at the board but even with it being rainbow could see a lot of potentially awkward river cards.
Should we just call and let him potentially barrel here?

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 7 Players

SB: $26.04 (104.2 bb)
BB: $25 (100 bb)
MP1: $25 (100 bb) 21/16/agg45% in 517 hands,, semi lag, cbets 80,50,33 down the streets
MP2: $37.13 (148.5 bb)
MP3: $56.10 (224.4 bb)
Hero (CO): $33.74 (135 bb)
BTN: $26.57 (106.3 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 3

3

MP1 raises to $0.75, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.75, BTN folds, SB calls $0.65, BB folds

Flop: ($2.50) 3

J

T

(3 players)
SB checks, MP1 bets $1.79, Hero calls $1.79, SB folds

Turn: ($6.08) 7

(2 players)
MP1 bets $3.50, Hero raises to $9.50, MP1 folds

Results: $13.08 pot ($0.59 rake)
Final Board: 3

J

T

7

MP1 mucked and lost (-$6.04 net)
Hero mucked 3

3

and won $12.49 ($6.45 net)

I like the check raise on the turn. If you check raise on the flop he's pretty likely to fold right there I think. It's just lame that he missed imo.

Figaroo2 · Jun 14, 2015

or3o1990 said:
I like the check raise on the turn. If you check raise on the flop he's pretty likely to fold right there I think. It's just lame that he missed imo.

Well not technically a checkraise as I haven't checked as I'm in position.
This is more a general question of getting value versus protecting our equity. Not only against different player types but also board textures.
here he is an aggressive player who triple barrels 33%. As soon as I threw in the raise I regretted the sizing as too big & turning my hand face up, here I could just min raise or call him down and let him hang himself..
With this flop however there is a good chance he barrels with hands that have a fair amount of equity with pair gutshot combos so do we protect what we have by raising hoping he has something to come along with or do we just call and risk a scare card and facing a shove with say 4 to straight out there.
Overall thinking about this one away from the table the absence of any flush draws leads me to a call or smaller raise on the turn. I think my sizing would be fine on a wetter board.

John A · Jun 14, 2015

or3o1990 said:
Yeah I was under the impression that this would be a mistake. because if the co has AKs the btn has QJc and you have 510h and they only min bet you only have to win 19% of the time to break even but you're going to win nearly 24% of the time.. A marginal spot but the odds seem in your favor non the less. I probably play too many hands. I'd play two pokemon cards on the btn if I was getting the right price!

I posted in the converter support thread. I'm having a small issue.

It doesn't matter how often you win though, again, you're not playing limit poker. The action isn't stopping on the flop. The only thing that matters in no-limit in terms of pre-flop odds are, can I win more than -100bb/100 if I make this call (unless you're all in or close to it where you know how much more is going in postflop)? Let's hypothetically say you win 24% of the time, but nearly all of that 24% you only win 8 bbs per. The remaining 76% you lose 50 bbs on average. In that case yes, you made the right call pre-flop because you won the hand more than the pre-flop odds dictated, but how much $ did you win ?

John A · Jun 14, 2015

mottotom27 said:
yea i do agree John, it makes sense that for the average reg at the micros they would lose less by folding than calling an "optimal" range. i think it's a good short term solution to do what you said.

i think the reason why other coaches i've spoken to have suggested to call "optimally" is they want to train you be more prepared for moving up and develop good habits so you're not just jumping into 50nl unprepared with no clue how to defend properly.

i think it all comes down to what your goals are, and whether or not the short term goal of making profit at micros outweighs the long term goal of developing good habits for moving up. i don't really know the answer, maybe you have more to say on this?

I agree, and talk about this a lot. I take a walk before you run approach. I try and be very systematic in what I lay out and when I teach what. People are motivated by success. If you're "supposed" to do something, and you're continualy losing, it's going to be difficult to motivate yourself to continue.

If you're winning, and you're trying to actively move up, then start adding more CC hands from the blinds and work on your blind defense. But you want to make sure you're not doing this before you've worked out and understood a pre-flop game. You understand post flop betting sizing in most common spots, and how to adjust to table dynamics and image. There's a lot of things you want to build on first.

Optimally in 6-max, it makes more sense to play about 27-29% of your hands, but do you recommend that to people first starting out? No, because they'll lose and then they won't continue on to learn. Eventually you start adding more and more hands to someone's game.

John A · Jun 14, 2015

or3o1990 said:
I can see how this would vary depending on the stakes for sure. My goal is to make as much money as my BR and skill will allow. I'm playing .5/1 currently and I've noticed a bit of a skill increase compared to .25/.50 but barely. So I'm definitely wanting to move up as soon as my BR is big enough.. GTO is a new concept for me but Bill Chen is next on my to read list after I've finished with the workbook.

John, at what stakes on Bovada would you say that there is a significant increase in the skill level of the players there? I'm just curious what I can expect in the future. Also, I'm going to buy the bovada HUD today. I'm excited but I'm a HUD noob though so any tips are appreciated!

It was 400NL on there, but I'm not even playing that high on there right now. I've been keeping a smaller amount online and mostly playing 100nl lately.

With the bovada card catcher, running it with PT4 is much easier. The hUD doesn't auto come up in HM2, and in MTT's it's a little hard because you need to stop the table finder and re-start it when you get moved. I'm still trying to see if there's a reasonable work around for this.

And as far as GTO, I'd recommend checking out some of the new stuff we have here. The videos are top notch at really teaching GTO in 3-bet pots and c-bet defense, etc... It's also pretty cheap to get tons of access to GTO solutions at your finger tips.

http://www.acepokersolutions.com/GTO-Strategy-Packs/

or3o1990 · Jun 14, 2015

Well not technically a checkraise as I haven't checked as I'm in position.
This is more a general question of getting value versus protecting our equity. Not only against different player types but also board textures.
here he is an aggressive player who triple barrels 33%. As soon as I threw in the raise I regretted the sizing as too big & turning my hand face up, here I could just min raise or call him down and let him hang himself..
With this flop however there is a good chance he barrels with hands that have a fair amount of equity with pair gutshot combos so do we protect what we have by raising hoping he has something to come along with or do we just call and risk a scare card and facing a shove with say 4 to straight out there.
Overall thinking about this one away from the table the absence of any flush draws leads me to a call or smaller raise on the turn. I think my sizing would be fine on a wetter board.

Ahh, my mistake. I'm a noob at hud stats but if he folds to 3bets often maybe that would have been the better line because he also barrels so consistently.

It doesn't matter how often you win though, again, you're not playing limit poker. The action isn't stopping on the flop. The only thing that matters in no-limit in terms of pre-flop odds are, can I win more than -100bb/100 if I make this call (unless you're all in or close to it where you know how much more is going in postflop)? Let's hypothetically say you win 24% of the time, but nearly all of that 24% you only win 8 bbs per. The remaining 76% you lose 50 bbs on average. In that case yes, you made the right call pre-flop because you won the hand more than the pre-flop odds dictated, but how much $ did you win ?

Thanks, I need practice on this lol. Had to refer to the WB to set it up..

(.24x8)-(.76x50)=-36.08bb?

You mentioned a walk before you run approach. Does that mean that If you're skilled at hand reading a playing post flop that these spot then become profitable? Hand reading is my weak link, so I guess I'll be folding the 10 5h from the big bling.

It was 400NL on there, but I'm not even playing that high on there right now. I've been keeping a smaller amount online and mostly playing 100nl lately.

With the bovada card catcher, running it with PT4 is much easier. The hUD doesn't auto come up in HM2, and in MTT's it's a little hard because you need to stop the table finder and re-start it when you get moved. I'm still trying to see if there's a reasonable work around for this.

And as far as GTO, I'd recommend checking out some of the new stuff we have here. The videos are top notch at really teaching GTO in 3-bet pots and c-bet defense, etc... It's also pretty cheap to get tons of access to GTO solutions at your finger tips.

http://www.acepokersolutions.com/GTO-Strategy-Packs/

__________________

I was having a couple of issues with the catcher and auto posting the blinds yesterday. I cleared my cache and cookies so hopefully everything will all run a little smoother today. Can you recommend a HUD setup I can run?

I'll definitely be looking into those strategy packs!

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