Polished Poker Vol. I Study Group

  • Thread starter Thread starter John A
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Figaroo2 said:
This is the range of hands I'm putting him on for him to raise the flop, obviously all the suited hands are clubs. He is a 60/40 fav with two cards to come. Once the A hits on the turn the equity switches to 60/40 in our favour which is why was considering a click back raise on the turn to charge his draws and define his hand.
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Sorry, I'm coming at the tail end of this discussion now.

So guys, this CR OTF is NOT going to include as many draws as you're putting in here. Not even close. You need to understand why, and I'm sure someone who's been in this thread long enough should know and understand why. So I'll leave it as a question because there's important stuff you want to understand about this hand if you're going to continue to improve on reading hand ranges.
 
John A said:
Sorry, I'm coming at the tail end of this discussion now.

So guys, this CR OTF is NOT going to include as many draws as you're putting in here. Not even close. You need to understand why, and I'm sure someone who's been in this thread long enough should know and understand why. So I'll leave it as a question because there's important stuff you want to understand about this hand if you're going to continue to improve on reading hand ranges.
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I disagree, he's just an aggro donk VPIP: 30, PFR: 18, 3B: 10, AF: 4.2, hands: 182.
I think he's calling and raising really wide off those stats. Often you tell me I don't range them wide enough, this time I'm pushing back a bit.
There already has been 1 caller its going to be 3 way, this type of player is going to come along with all sorts of suited junk here. Sorry to pick on Rhom again but we have been picking him up for calling suited junk in the blinds multiway, it happens all the time at these stakes
 
Ok, well you're allowed to disagree... I think. 🙂

Since we're calling out Rhom, let's ask him what he's do if he had some of the drawing hands you say this guy has, and what size he'd be CRing with those hands on the flop. How's that?

Don't you think the CR sizing is a little small for an "aggro donk" multiway with some of the hands you guys are suggesting?
 
John A said:
Fold the flop. Why are you calling here? That's one of those hands where you say to your opponent, "Ty for playing this so bad and allowing me to get away from TPTK". Take advantage of those spots.
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so backdoor flush n straight make no difference here?
 
John A said:
Fold the flop. Why are you calling here? That's one of those hands where you say to your opponent, "Ty for playing this so bad and allowing me to get away from TPTK". Take advantage of those spots.
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NIT BITCH!!!!!!!!

John A said:
Ok, well you're allowed to disagree... I think. 🙂

Since we're calling out Rhom, let's ask him what he's do if he had some of the drawing hands you say this guy has, and what size he'd be CRing with those hands on the flop. How's that?

Don't you think the CR sizing is a little small for an "aggro donk" multiway with some of the hands you guys are suggesting?
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If I had called with suited junk, (currently going through withdrawal symptoms😱) I wouldn't really CR flop as 2 broadway cards hits UTG alot more than me. Id just draw cheaply and if UTG has difficulty folding AA/AK or even KKK be great implied odds

Also if I had QJs, JTs I'm not sure, I may check raise to about $4 and get it in if shoved, although may be best to just call

QTc is flipping with AA AK

PS disagree that we wouldn't raise with a set. 2 Broadways with flush draw vs UTG is no brainer Raise on the Flop as so many bad cards can hit the turn and kill the action
 
rhombus said:
NIT BITCH!!!!!!!!



If I had called with suited junk, (currently going through withdrawal symptoms😱) I wouldn't really CR flop as 2 broadway cards hits UTG alot more than me. Id just draw cheaply and if UTG has difficulty folding AA/AK or even KKK be great implied odds

Also if I had QJs, JTs I'm not sure, I may check raise to about $4 and get it in if shoved, although may be best to just call

QTc is flipping with AA AK

PS disagree that we wouldn't raise with a set. 2 Broadways with flush draw vs UTG is no brainer Raise on the Flop as so many bad cards can hit the turn and kill the action
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Yes, guys? Agreed?
 
Don't slowplay 😉

Hand History driven straight to this forum with DriveHUD Poker HUD & Database

NL Holdem $1(BB)
UTG ($159.68)
HERO ($101.3)
BTN ($31.95)
SB ($98)
BB ($101.5)
EP ($101.91)
MP ($137.42)
MP ($63.13)
HJ ($74.72)

Dealt to Hero 8:diamond: T:diamond:

EP Raises To $2 (Rem. Stack: 99.91), MP Folds, MP Calls $2 (Rem. Stack: 61.13), HJ Folds, UTG Calls $1 (Rem. Stack: 157.18), HERO Raises To $10 (Rem. Stack: 91.3), BTN Folds, SB Folds, BB Folds, EP Raises To $16 (Rem. Stack: 83.91), MP Folds, UTG Calls $16 (Rem. Stack: 141.18), HERO Calls $8 (Rem. Stack: 83.3)

Flop ($58.0) K:spade: 9:heart: J:diamond:
EP Checks, UTG Checks, HERO Checks

Turn ($58.0) K:spade: 9:heart: J:diamond: 4:diamond:
EP Bets $10 (Rem. Stack: 73.91), UTG Calls $10 (Rem. Stack: 131.18), HERO Calls $10 (Rem. Stack: 73.3)

River ($88.0) K:spade: 9:heart: J:diamond: 4:diamond: A:diamond:
EP Checks, UTG Checks, HERO Bets $49 (Rem. Stack: 24.3), EP $73.91 (allin) (Rem. Stack: 0.00), UTG Folds, HERO $24.3 (allin) (Rem. Stack: 0.0)

EP shows K:diamond: K:heart:

HERO wins $231.6
EP wins $0.61
 
John A said:
No, they don't. But why don't they?
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I think i got it.

because we arent drawing to the nuts and a lot our outs will be dirty

but also we opened utg tight range... he raises out bet which ofc king is in our range.

leads turn with ace on turn and obv we can have 2p a lot. but he aint scared as well

i guess this is why my read was a set of jacks originally and we blocked semi bluffs with the flush cuz we hold the magic Ace ... class dismissed.

his bet is small looking for value as well not trying to fold us out???? ... did i miss anything else

also we are mega deep and wants to try and get stacks in? if was weakish he would play a more pot control line.
 
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Aces2w1n said:
I think i got it.

because we arent drawing to the nuts and a lot our outs will be dirty

but also we opened utg tight range... he raises out bet which ofc king is in our range.

leads turn with ace on turn and obv we can have 2p a lot. but he aint scared as well

i guess this is why my read was a set of jacks originally and we blocked semi bluffs with the flush cuz we hold the magic Ace ... class dismissed.

his bet is small looking for value as well not trying to fold us out???? ... did i miss anything else

also we are mega deep and wants to try and get stacks in? if was weakish he would play a more pot control line.
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We still talking about the same hand? The AK hand right?

Because no, both draws are to the nuts, so not sure what you're talking about.
 
John A said:
We still talking about the same hand? The AK hand right?
Because no, both draws are to the nuts, so not sure what you're talking about.
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Yeah he is and yes I agree they were to the nuts which is exactly why I continued in the hand. I have been encountering a very significantly larger amount of flop check raises and big flop donk bets recently. There must be a training place out there pushing blind defence stuff. Funnily I watched a J Little podcast last week where this was being pushed, I did post the link to it in the skype group.
If you fold to it all you will just get crushed. I will look to filter on this and see just how much more its happening rather than just anecdotally.
Aces2 you must be smoking too much dope man lol
 
John A said:
We still talking about the same hand? The AK hand right?

Because no, both draws are to the nuts, so not sure what you're talking about.
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but if he has a set... our draws are dirty? if we improve on equity meaning reverse implied odds???

sure we drawing to nutflush fig but if we hit flush and vill hits book...
 
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John A said:
Don't slowplay 😉
NL Holdem $1(BB)
UTG ($159.68)
HERO ($101.3)
BTN ($31.95)
SB ($98)
BB ($101.5)
EP ($101.91)
MP ($137.42)
MP ($63.13)
HJ ($74.72)

Dealt to Hero 8♦ T♦

EP Raises To $2 (Rem. Stack: 99.91), MP Folds, MP Calls $2 (Rem. Stack: 61.13), HJ Folds, UTG Calls $1 (Rem. Stack: 157.18), HERO Raises To $10 (Rem. Stack: 91.3), BTN Folds, SB Folds, BB Folds, EP Raises To $16 (Rem. Stack: 83.91), MP Folds, UTG Calls $16 (Rem. Stack: 141.18), HERO Calls $8 (Rem. Stack: 83.3)

Flop ($58.0) K♠ 9♥ J♦
EP Checks, UTG Checks, HERO Checks

Turn ($58.0) K♠ 9♥ J♦ 4♦
EP Bets $10 (Rem. Stack: 73.91), UTG Calls $10 (Rem. Stack: 131.18), HERO Calls $10 (Rem. Stack: 73.3)

River ($88.0) K♠ 9♥ J♦ 4♦ A♦
EP Checks, UTG Checks, HERO Bets $49 (Rem. Stack: 24.3), EP $73.91 (allin) (Rem. Stack: 0.00), UTG Folds, HERO $24.3 (allin) (Rem. Stack: 0.0)

EP shows K♦ K♥

HERO wins $231.6
EP wins $0.61
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Are you really happy with preflop here? Its basically a steal and you got trapped by KK. You got a great price to call for 8 bucks but its 8 bucks down the drain most of the time. Just how wide are you going to steal and continue here then? Any read on some stats?
 
Aces2w1n said:
but if he has a set... our draws are dirty? if we improve on equity meaning reverse implied odds???

sure we drawing to nutflush fig but if we hit flush and vill hits book...
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I very rarely get it all in with a flush or straight on a paired board, clearly we can still win this hand with a nut flush/straight non paired board
 
Figaroo2 said:
I very rarely get it all in with a flush or straight on a paired board, clearly we can still win this hand with a nut flush/straight non paired board
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fair enough and but no fold equity either so have to make the hand which is even worse. oh well was trying to answer johns question originally and went overboard 🙂
 
Aces2w1n said:
but if he has a set... our draws are dirty? if we improve on equity meaning reverse implied odds???

sure we drawing to nutflush fig but if we hit flush and vill hits book...
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That's not what a dirty draw means. It's a draw where you can hit but still be behind. Both draws are to the nuts.

Most of the reasons were already stated by Rhombus. Draws won't typically be CR when they are getting the right price to call, especially MW and especially on broadway boards where FE is lower.

It's a fold on the flop because of this + sizing. You're rarely ahead in this spot. It's not a spot where you're going to get exploited by folding. It's a spot that like I said in my first response, you should be thanking your opponent for playing the hand poorly and allowing you to get away.
 
John A said:
That's not what a dirty draw means. It's a draw where you can hit but still be behind. Both draws are to the nuts.

Most of the reasons were already stated by Rhombus. Draws won't typically be CR when they are getting the right price to call, especially MW and especially on broadway boards where FE is lower.

It's a fold on the flop because of this + sizing. You're rarely ahead in this spot. It's not a spot where you're going to get exploited by folding. It's a spot that like I said in my first response, you should be thanking your opponent for playing the hand poorly and allowing you to get away.
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Thanks John 🙂
 
hyrum said:
I'd like to participate. Thanks
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Just grab the ebook and jump in with any questions.

Speaking of... we need a new topic. I want to try and do some videos this week, so I'm fishing for topics we can learn and talk about.
 
John A said:
Just grab the ebook and jump in with any questions.
Speaking of... we need a new topic. I want to try and do some videos this week, so I'm fishing for topics we can learn and talk about.
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We win the most from the button and lose the most from the blinds, those are the two key areas for me.
I notice there are some new win the button tourns on Pstars.
A post flop button masterclass would be my request please.
 
John A said:
Just grab the ebook and jump in with any questions.

Speaking of... we need a new topic. I want to try and do some videos this week, so I'm fishing for topics we can learn and talk about.
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I could suggest a topic. How about playing mid-large pairs OOP after getting cold called?

I have made some relatively tight folds with these type of hands recently post flop on draw heavy boards. And, although I feel they were correct, I wonder, if there is still a way to extract more from these spots.
 
John A said:
ok, good suggestions. I'll ponder these.

I did a quick video about a hand on here the other day. Let me know if you like this format or not:

https://youtu.be/ywI3Hx5pW6o
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The format is great! The explanation is on point (surprise, surprise), plus all the supporting software - it's very well done.
 
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