Ace King suited?

Status
Not open for further replies.
zachvac

zachvac

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Sep 14, 2007
Total posts
7,832
Poker Chips
0
Casino Coins
0
  • #26
Actually in addition to the challenge I just mentioned, I'll do the AK vs. 22 if I get to pick suits:

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 50.084% 49.77% 00.31% 852207 5387.50 { AhKh }
Hand 1: 49.916% 49.60% 00.31% 849322 5387.50 { 2c2s }
 
zachvac

zachvac

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Sep 14, 2007
Total posts
7,832
Poker Chips
0
Casino Coins
0
  • #27
But this is basically what matters:

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 51.152% 42.62% 08.53% 148884264 29794920.00 { AKs }
Hand 1: 48.848% 40.32% 08.53% 140835912 29794920.00 { 99+, AQs+, AQo+ }



Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 33.979% 33.68% 00.30% 235282392 2101188.00 { 22 }
Hand 1: 66.021% 65.72% 00.30% 459135264 2101188.00 { 99+, AQs+, AQo+ }


edit: similarly would any people saying fold AKs also fold JJ preflop?

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 50.184% 49.22% 00.96% 318570540 6243024.00 { JJ }
Hand 1: 49.816% 48.85% 00.96% 316194324 6243024.00 { 99+, AQs+, AQo+ }
 
MrMuckets

MrMuckets

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Aug 12, 2005
Total posts
2,378
Awards
2
Poker Chips
0
Casino Coins
0
  • #28
You can't teach a smart son of a bitch nothing.
 
zachvac

zachvac

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Sep 14, 2007
Total posts
7,832
Poker Chips
0
Casino Coins
0
  • #29
MrMuckets said:
You can't teach a smart son of a bitch nothing.

Tactic #1: ignore the question of AKs in a tourney in an MTT at a full table (~5 tables mentioned in the OP) and instead argue about how it does in HU. This is known in debate as a red herring

Tactic #2: personal attack. This is known in debate as an ad hominem attack.

Keep up the logical fallacies, you're doing great :D :rolleyes:.
 
Irexes

Irexes

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 10, 2006
Total posts
7,016
Poker Chips
0
Casino Coins
0
  • #30
Muckets, you are wrong about 22 being a better hand to get it in with than AK. We're talking about tournaments here, not heads up or anything else. That was the subject of the OP and subject of your first post.

Sorry, but it's true and your first post was very misleading and worth correcting.
 
Irexes

Irexes

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 10, 2006
Total posts
7,016
Poker Chips
0
Casino Coins
0
  • #31
Just to add if anyone wants to arrange HU4rollz games then please do it via PM. Any further posts of that type will be deleted.

Thanks.
 
vanquish

vanquish

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Apr 26, 2007
Total posts
12,000
Poker Chips
0
Casino Coins
0
  • #32
SeanyJ said:
Yes, always all in. Nothing else matters about the tournament just that you have AK suited. Just insta shove!

forever trust in who we are
and nothing else matters
 
Chris_TC

Chris_TC

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 11, 2007
Total posts
925
Poker Chips
0
Casino Coins
0
  • #33
I don't know about AK. I tend to minraise and fold if someone re-raises. But what about AA?

I post this because I tend to lose when I'm up against it and lose when I've got it. Just got busted out by K2o against my pocket rockets.
 
widowmaker89

widowmaker89

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 31, 2008
Total posts
514
Poker Chips
0
Casino Coins
0
  • #34
Chris_TC said:
I don't know about AK. I tend to minraise and fold if someone re-raises. But what about AA?

I post this because I tend to lose when I'm up against it and lose when I've got it. Just got busted out by K2o against my pocket rockets.

Me too! The best way to play AA is to just limp in and maybe call a small raise. If you dont hit a A on the flop, I usually let it go, someone always has 2 pair even if its T4o!!
 
zachvac

zachvac

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Sep 14, 2007
Total posts
7,832
Poker Chips
0
Casino Coins
0
  • #35
Chris_TC said:
I don't know about AK. I tend to minraise and fold if someone re-raises. But what about AA?

I post this because I tend to lose when I'm up against it and lose when I've got it. Just got busted out by K2o against my pocket rockets.

How much you want to bet someone responds to this with another bad beat story not realizing that this is sarcasm?
 
Irexes

Irexes

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 10, 2006
Total posts
7,016
Poker Chips
0
Casino Coins
0
  • #36
Just to note, that the best way to increase the quality of posts is to reply to them with quality, not sarcasm.

And I'm a big fan of sarcasm.
 
Crystal Blue

Crystal Blue

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 11, 2008
Total posts
1,190
Poker Chips
0
Casino Coins
0
  • #37
There really are some funny funny people at this website, hahahah NOT.
a)Some give genuine advice, b)others try their best at it, c)and some just think they are somehow funny.
Those who fall into ( c ) category really should try and be more helpful.
Is that too much to ask?

Edit: posted this without seeing Irexes post above, glad im not alone in my thoughts.
 
M

maityTNT

Rising Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Total posts
20
Poker Chips
0
Casino Coins
0
  • #38
widowmaker89 said:
Me too! The best way to play AA is to just limp in and maybe call a small raise. If you dont hit a A on the flop, I usually let it go, someone always has 2 pair even if its T4o!!


It's better to raise high to squeeze out all the junk hands
 
Irexes

Irexes

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 10, 2006
Total posts
7,016
Poker Chips
0
Casino Coins
0
  • #39
Ok, back on topic or I'll lock it.
 
widowmaker89

widowmaker89

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 31, 2008
Total posts
514
Poker Chips
0
Casino Coins
0
  • #40
AK should typically be raising/reraising in a tourny setting as is the original question. Zach explained it very well so this will be redudent mostly but the reason AK is so good is that it will win a lot of pots on the and does very well against calling ranges. As zach pointed out use stove, it is a pretty solid favorite vs AQ+ 88+.

Typically in tournys, people have pretty small stacks and as it gets later in the tounry blinds/antes make up a significant portion of total stack sizes and stealing becomes very important. So later in the tourny not only can you steal the blinds by raising, but you make be able to also steal the person trying to steal, and even if they call you are really usually crushing their range(lets say average stack is 15BB) since people will start stealing wide and have to call down lighter than say the first orbit. And as zach showed, even using a conservative range AK still is in great shape.

Overall, the real beauty of AK is its fold equity as hands such as 55,66 shouldnt be calling(since those hands against our range are bad) and even if called we are usually either dominated them or in a coinflip. While AA and KK are obviously in villians range, its not a big part as we have one of each already which significantly decreases those chances.
 
widowmaker89

widowmaker89

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 31, 2008
Total posts
514
Poker Chips
0
Casino Coins
0
  • #41
To put another way, AK is good for 2 reasons.

1) you will win a lot of pots uncontested
2) Those pots you dont win uncontested you are beating their range and really not an underdog to much of it.

point 1 can be true to any hand obviously however 2 is the key. Its not even that we crush ranges(which we do) but we are rarely crushed. As zach pointed out doing this with say 22 or 66(which is also a correct play a lot of the times) is not as good since if we do get called we dont fare so well against villains range(even though we are find against AK villains range includes high pairs as well obviously) and we are not usually ahead of anything.

22 if we get called we hope for a coinflip, AK if we get called we are hoping to be a big favorite, thats the main difference.
 
frisellan

frisellan

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 23, 2008
Total posts
249
Poker Chips
0
Casino Coins
0
  • #42
(all preflop)
So If you have a M of 14 or less.
And you are feeling saucey.
A preFlop shove is ok but not recommended.
M of 9 or less yes all-in is recommended

If you are faced with a raise you can try and reraise to steal against weak players.

If you are in late position and it folds to you, you should be stealing blinds and if you get caught, o-well.

If you are faced with a raise and then a reraise you should fold.

It all depends on the basics; knowing your opponents; position, your stack, how big the blinds are, ect. . .

And ACE KING suited vs 22 is even money as long as one of the twos are not the same suit (as AK )
 
Last edited:
Dwilius

Dwilius

CardsChat Regular
Silver Level
Joined
May 5, 2008
Total posts
7,584
Awards
34
Poker Chips
0
Casino Coins
0
  • #43
If you have an average stack then you shouldn't be in push/fold mode...so not going to openshove and let only the best hands call you, you're going to raise to let shortstacks shove worse hands on you, or be shoving over raises, ready and willing to get allin to go for the win.

As far as the 22 v ak, you don't need pokerstove to solve that one. Simple comparison. How many hands are well ahead of AKs, two. How many hands are well ahead of 22, all pairs. How many hands are AK well ahead of, all dominated hands. How many hands are 22 well ahead of, none.
 
Last edited:
T

thefatman313

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 14, 2009
Total posts
64
Poker Chips
0
Casino Coins
0
  • #44
If it's late you must mean you have few chips compared to the BB maybe 10x the BB...in that case if every1 to act after you has also less then 10x you go all in...if you are lucky you take the blinds. if some1 raised before you and they have more then 10x the BB they are guaranteed to call your all-in so again go all-in. and this will almost certainly push the blinds out and you will go heads up...if by chance they fold you just pulled off a steal raise and took the blinds and the original raise.....if you have around 15x the BB you may just want to raise 3x the BB if no1 acted b4 you instead of all-in....because you then can get away from the hand if you don't like the flop. but if you have 20x the BB and are in early position you may just decide to call and c the action behind you depending on what others do you may have the chance to re-raise or fold however your gut feels...but if you are in late position and facing opponents with less chips then you , certainly go all in.
 
B

BostonRobber

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 5, 2008
Total posts
65
Poker Chips
0
Casino Coins
0
  • #45
Well if you push what is going to happen?

Everyone could fold and you take down the blinds - not bad, non fatal and slightly profitable.

OR

You ferret out the big hands AA, KK, QQ or any other pair - they are all at least a coin flip against you. In addition to these hands any big stack might play suited connectors or weaker aces in which case you will just have to cross your fingers that suit or their cards do not hit.

So if you push with this had I'd say you're hoping to get lucky since most callers are going to be 50/50 or better with you. I prefer control. Sometimes I bet this one and sometimes I limp.
 
Steveg1976

Steveg1976

...
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Total posts
2,516
Awards
1
Poker Chips
0
Casino Coins
0
  • #46
BostonRobber said:
Well if you push what is going to happen?

Everyone could fold and you take down the blinds - not bad, non fatal and slightly profitable.

OR

You ferret out the big hands AA, KK, QQ or any other pair - they are all at least a coin flip against you. In addition to these hands any big stack might play suited connectors or weaker aces in which case you will just have to cross your fingers that suit or their cards do not hit.

So if you push with this had I'd say you're hoping to get lucky since most callers are going to be 50/50 or better with you. I prefer control. Sometimes I bet this one and sometimes I limp.

That is wrong, AK crushes those cards and they are praying to suck out on YOU.

Edit: To clarify my point AK against and other Ax is way ahead. What are the likely results. You both don't improve, you win, You both spike an A and you win. The only way a bad A can win is by spiking their crappy kicker, two pair, or some super remote Flush/straight which happens but is very very remot

the same for the Connectors, with AK you don't have to improve to win but the do.
 
Last edited:
zachvac

zachvac

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Sep 14, 2007
Total posts
7,832
Poker Chips
0
Casino Coins
0
  • #47
BostonRobber said:
Well if you push what is going to happen?

Everyone could fold and you take down the blinds - not bad, non fatal and slightly profitable.

OR

You ferret out the big hands AA, KK, QQ or any other pair - they are all at least a coin flip against you. In addition to these hands any big stack might play suited connectors or weaker aces in which case you will just have to cross your fingers that suit or their cards do not hit.

So if you push with this had I'd say you're hoping to get lucky since most callers are going to be 50/50 or better with you. I prefer control. Sometimes I bet this one and sometimes I limp.


These 2 statements do not compute.

Also to those who still think you should not be pushing AK in most spots, what hands would you push with that are paired?

Only KK+?
JJ?
99?
55?
22?

Just curious.
 
zachvac

zachvac

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Sep 14, 2007
Total posts
7,832
Poker Chips
0
Casino Coins
0
  • #48
Hey I just want to apologize for my posts earlier. I think I over-reacted. I don't want to discourage people from posting at all. I still stand by everything strategy-wise I said but I think I could have said it with a bit more tact. I definitely don't want people to be afraid of posting for fear of being wrong, as that's the only way to learn and despite popular belief I'm sometimes wrong too ;). Sometimes I just wish people would put a bit more thought into their posts though so then whether right or wrong there is a bit of logic to back it up. Then even if someone gets something wrong we can discuss the reasoning behind it, where the logic is flawed or not, etc.
 
J

jaxplayer

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 27, 2008
Total posts
36
Poker Chips
0
Casino Coins
0
  • #49
I would like to agree with seeing the flop with this one...especially with 5 tables still left in the tourney.
 
vanquish

vanquish

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Apr 26, 2007
Total posts
12,000
Poker Chips
0
Casino Coins
0
  • #50
zachvac said:
Hey I just want to apologize for my posts earlier. I think I over-reacted. I don't want to discourage people from posting at all. I still stand by everything strategy-wise I said but I think I could have said it with a bit more tact. I definitely don't want people to be afraid of posting for fear of being wrong, as that's the only way to learn and despite popular belief I'm sometimes wrong too ;). Sometimes I just wish people would put a bit more thought into their posts though so then whether right or wrong there is a bit of logic to back it up. Then even if someone gets something wrong we can discuss the reasoning behind it, where the logic is flawed or not, etc.

sicko use of the ;) smiley my man. sicko :eek:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top