All guys who look to make a living out of poker. Question...

Hello all.

If I can make a living out of poker or not is up for debate, but a question I would be interested to know.

What kind of targets do you set to make money???

This breaks down into a variety of questions, being

• Is it based on annual/ Monthly/ weekly/ daily cash target
• so many times the blinds at the level you play/ hour
• Increasing your bankroll by a certain %
• Other...

I think this question could help a lot of us as I think I set my expectations too high.

I haven't tried to make poker a living, however, I have given it some thought.

I think that you have to be able to track your profit/hour over let's say six months. Multiply that by the hours that you expect to be able to play in a week. Now just to be safe, let's divide that number by 2. We will have to be able to handle the inevitable swings that are a part of the game. This numebr is what you are going to need to be able to pay bills with.

example:

$30 per hour played

40 hours played per week x $30

$1200 per week expected ROI

4 weeks x $1200

$4800 monthly income divided by 2 to sustain bad beats during initial few months

= $2400

Can you survive off of this number? If the answer is yes, then I would safely say that you are able to take this next step.

Now this is entirely my own personal opinion. I would never recommend someone turning pro unless they could absolutely justify it through their own statistics over a large period of time.

Most people who make a living off of poker are grinders. Most pros make most of their money playing Limit Holdem. I have been reading your posts and as you know you need some more experience playing limit. Before you even think about playing for a living you will need to improve your limit play. When you can consistantly beat the $5/$10 game then you can star to seriously consider it.

Don't get me wrong I wish you all the luck and am rooting for you if you decide to do it, just wanted to be a wet blamket, lol.

Is no-limit not possible to grind for a living? Just wondering. I understand that limit WAS the game for pros making a living. It appears that there are more NL games on any given site nowadays.

I too have considered it. In my case it would be the best retirement. However!

I so far have not increased my BR. I will not redeposit. I am at a break even (almost) stage, with moments of brilliance, still slightly exceeded by moments of donkeyness. When I have that ass in the coral, I will rethink.

good start off of money would be 5k - 10k unless you want to play lower and build up depends on your job

Great post Fred. I have been thinking about this often. Here is what I figure. Why not Play poker now and then, Play big, and if you do hit it big you will most likely have people or companies that will pay for your buy-ins. I think the trick to being a professional gambler is to play with other peoples money. You do have to have a pretty good track record though....Just like any other job. It goes further but I have a tourney to play right now.

mrsnake3695 said:

Most people who make a living off of poker are grinders. Most pros make most of their money playing Limit Holdem. I have been reading your posts and as you know you need some more experience playing limit. Before you even think about playing for a living you will need to improve your limit play. When you can consistantly beat the $5/$10 game then you can star to seriously consider it.

Don't get me wrong I wish you all the luck and am rooting for you if you decide to do it, just wanted to be a wet blamket, lol.

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Don`t get me wrong guys, I`m not looking to play poker for a living. I have my own businesses. I would not mind it being a well payed hobby.

I`m trying to find out if I set my expectation levels too high. I had started the year off wanting to increase my bankroll by 10% a month - bad idea I think

I'm in the process of making poker as my career. I have put a alot of thought into it. I am a business owner so as of right now Poker is my hobby, second job. I'm not much of a limit player, I'd rather play NL....The closest Casino's are about and hour and a half away, and then I have a few that are about 3 hours north in Canada.

I have heard of people who allegedly make a living playing online poker, via online chat rooms etc. But I have yet to meet one in person, and I got to know allot of people that play online over the 9 year period I've been playing online. When you consider all the obstacles you face online especially in the cash game venue where most of the bots, professional collusion teams, (not just the 2 friends on a phone collusion) the teams of 10 and more members, mathematical poker software programs, opponent statistic programs, bad players with tons of money just having a good time not caring less about winning or losing cracking your AA with trip 2's, etc. etc. etc. are taking place, I think most players like 95% would have a tough time justifying playing online cash games limit or not for a living. You may be a great poker player and your game should dominate most of your opponents, but the playing field remains even for to long of a period of time while playing online with everything available that will help opponents gain a edge hence leaving your talented game not much better then theres. With the volume and different caliber of players playing online in the millions, your odds of constant success are bleak.

Playing live would be a different story. Most players live are playing in a game within there financial means. The game is slow and players have plenty of time to evaluate their opponents. This is how the game was meant to be played. Without software support lesser opponents usually don't have a chance other then luck. The list goes on and on why live play should be the place when considering a career playing poker.

And if these software programs are not to be feared while playing online, why can't I bring my laptop loaded with a poker bot to a live game. You would find me and my broken laptop outside bleeding on the sidewalk.

>> Of course, I miss out on some stuff like coworkers, paid leave, pension, free coffee (not that the coffee machines at work are so great, but still!) and, of course, a stable income

Fred, you're understating the value of going to work in your underwear every day. I'd trade that for a free cup of coffee any day of the week. Especially when you consider the chances of finding a job that offers a pension these days...

I'd be more concerned about revenue growth, as opposed to maintaining $5k a month. $5k a month is great when you're 25; try raising a family on that. I considered the farse of poker as a supplementary income by playing at night, especially on the weekends and realized that in the long run, my time was much better spent with my family or doing work stuff and continuing to get ahead there.

Also, think of WHEN you're going to be playing. I'm guessing most of the people that post here can go onto FT or PS and rock it on Friday night. What about Tuesday in the middle of the day? You're not going to hit 30k hands a month by playing on the weekend evenings only, and it's a different world on a weekday, especially as the money increases.

Finally, think of me. I had this donk on the ropes last night for $60. He raised pre-flop on the button, I called. T44 on the board, I've got top pair and a flush draw. I bet hard and he raises - I'm convinced he's trying to bluff. He wouldn't have raised me with 4/anything, and I really didn't think he had an over pair. We're all in and he flips over QQ. Outplayed.

And then the flush hit on the river.

One can only wonder how many pieces his keyboard is in and whether or not he'll be able to pull his mouse out of the wall. And that's at .25/.50 no limit.

Excellent post and great question, as one that is being trained and I have a long way to go, the way I might do it and I have not yet decided, is when I move to nevada I will be in the heart of texas holdem and then some, so I figure open up a poker bank account, put x amount of dollars in and start at the lowest NL tourneys and see if I can make it to the top.

Even in poker you must have a goal, then you can build from that goal. My goal is the wsop bracelet, but instead of thinking that way, im thinking hey lets make a goal to just place in the top 100, from there we can build. And in the end hopefully we come out ahead, hell Im even going after the DPT, thats the domino pro tournament, so one step at a time.

Been reading through advice and suggestions for those who would like to be professional poker players. What seems to make the most sense is to go for what is natural to your lifestyle according to rational reasoning and ability.

While some will argue that poker is not "gambling" , the truth is that luck is a factor and a consideration for a thinking person. A consistantly sucsessful "gambler" dosen't bet what he can't afford. So as a poker player this is a critical factor pertaining to wins or losses.

Lifestyle choices can now be made, priority's catagorized and goals set. The idea of beng a "Professional Amatuer" in poker gives one the most flexability. Arrange your life with a job that gives you the same flexability, being ones own boss if you can run your own business is best, so you can take days off and travel to tournaments or juicy cash games. If you can't run your own business then there are jobs out there that allow you the same kind of flexability, taxi driver or real estate agent are two of many kinds of flexable career employments.

If/when you win a big tournament, or hit the mother lode of a cash game where you are the shark stuffing yourself on a buffet of bait fish, then maybe you can take some time off your day job and enjoy some luxury. Maybe just build that bankroll for bigger fishing trips, whatever your heart desires.

Work can be such a drugery, why would anyone want to make poker a job! Being a "Professional Amatuer" should be much more fun.

I know a few people who can live off of 300 bucks a week, and I know a few who can make that at the tables pretty easily. It's a matter of relativity and comfort, how much are you willing to sacrifice and how well you want to live combined with how sucsessful you are at any given venture.

I'd love to go "pro" but I'd want to do it at a level where I had a helf a million in reserve. And that's just small change to the pros we see on TV all the time.

It's all individual.

DukeDrew said:

Fred, you're understating the value of going to work in your underwear every day. I'd trade that for a free cup of coffee any day of the week. Especially when you consider the chances of finding a job that offers a pension these days...

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The job situation in Sweden is quite a bit different from the US (I'm taking the liberty of presuming that that's where you're from). We all get pensions here, but the amount varies from "decent" to "great." But: I don't think I understate the value of going to work in my underwear at all - not for me. Honestly, I've played online poker for a few days here and there to try it out. What I find is that I get groggy, I get bored, I feel trapped in my home office and I feel like a real slob. It just doesn't do it for me.

I'm not saying it can't do it for anyone, but I'm very adamant about it not being right for me.

I'd be more concerned about revenue growth, as opposed to maintaining $5k a month. $5k a month is great when you're 25; try raising a family on that. I considered the farse of poker as a supplementary income by playing at night, especially on the weekends and realized that in the long run, my time was much better spent with my family or doing work stuff and continuing to get ahead there.

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Yeah, $5k a month isn't good enough "forever," and there's a tangent that I'd like to go on, here: Not only is $5k not good enough forever, but while we need to be able to make MORE money in the future, we quite probably run the risk of being in a WORSE situation in a few years. Online poker doesn't seem to "boom" anymore. From the charts that I've seen, I get the feeling that the big rooms are maintaining a somewhat steady stream of players so far this year. So we need to stay ahead of the curve and the curve is getting increasingly steep.

Also, think of WHEN you're going to be playing. I'm guessing most of the people that post here can go onto FT or PS and rock it on Friday night. What about Tuesday in the middle of the day? You're not going to hit 30k hands a month by playing on the weekend evenings only, and it's a different world on a weekday, especially as the money increases.

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If you're making the point that games are tougher - or at least there aren't as many, so the really juicy ones are usually full - in the middle of the day on a tuesday, I absolutely agree with you. The effect of this must not be underestimated.

Finally, think of me. I had this donk on the ropes last night for $60. He raised pre-flop on the button, I called. T44 on the board, I've got top pair and a flush draw. I bet hard and he raises - I'm convinced he's trying to bluff. He wouldn't have raised me with 4/anything, and I really didn't think he had an over pair. We're all in and he flips over QQ. Outplayed.

And then the flush hit on the river.

One can only wonder how many pieces his keyboard is in and whether or not he'll be able to pull his mouse out of the wall. And that's at .25/.50 no limit.

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I`d like to thank all of you guys for your input

It has helped me make a decision.

I sometimes get frustrated playing poker when you have spent a week building up a decent amount of winnings on cash games and then it all evaporates in one session of bad beats, desperate moves, etc.

So, in agreement with the point MrDaMan made about being a `professional amature` I feel, in order, I am

1. a good MTT player. I am patient and I am starting at the same chip level as everyone else. The ppl who go all in early I can wait to catch, I have a strategy planned out before each game and I stick to it, but I am flexable enough to change dependin on table conditions.
2. I`m a decent SNG player now that I have got to grips with the level I should be playing now - I committed the cardinal sin of playing games that were way above my skill level/ bankroll level at present. I have now sorted that out and I`m on my way back, slowly but surely.
3. I`m not a very good cash player. I am effected by the fact that if I lose a pot I`m losing real cash - I do not feel the same way in a MTT or SNG. In these games I`ve paid my buyin and I can`t lose anymore. I also become less patient in cash games because I can sit for an hour playing $1/2.00 limit and be a few $$$ down, even, or a few $$$ ahead. So this does not `float my boat` as they say

So I am going to aim to hit that big pay day (or regular big paydays) by aiming to win MTT. I will win my regular $$$ by playing $5/10 buy in SNG`s and I will continue to play cash limit games with the aim of breaking even but to build up my FPP on Pstars - Simple

mrsnake3695 said:

Most people who make a living off of poker are grinders. Most pros make most of their money playing Limit Holdem. I have been reading your posts and as you know you need some more experience playing limit. Before you even think about playing for a living you will need to improve your limit play. When you can consistantly beat the $5/$10 game then you can star to seriously consider it.

Don't get me wrong I wish you all the luck and am rooting for you if you decide to do it, just wanted to be a wet blamket, lol.

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What is a grinder???

The term comes from "grinding," and the analogy is that a poker grinder plays many hands for a little profit each, "grinding" out the profit, as opposed to playing a few hands and winning big.

there is one way to make a living off of online poker tht seems to have been missed and tht is mtts online. This is where the real online pros make most of their money if u get your self to a level where as u can beat any level above 20 buy in u can make serious prfits which u can supplement with cash play.

Take a look at officialpokerrankings.com and u will see the kind of money being made. players can make 100s of thousand s a yr by getting good and in mtts the curve is not as steep as the cash one

I agree with ths

Stefanicov said:

there is one way to make a living off of online poker tht seems to have been missed and tht is mtts online. This is where the real online pros make most of their money if u get your self to a level where as u can beat any level above 20 buy in u can make serious prfits which u can supplement with cash play.

Take a look at officialpokerrankings.com and u will see the kind of money being made. players can make 100s of thousand s a yr by getting good and in mtts the curve is not as steep as the cash one

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I know a lot of guys who play on Ladbrokes. They multi table mtt and seem to do very well. I think they also play a very standard game.

Could you stand on a log 8 hours a day, holding a cup of water, without drinking or spilling any?

Slightly shattered, could you do the same the next day? and the next?

This is the sort of focus needed to grind out 15,000 hands a month profitably. It is exhausting. At times I wonder why I even take notes on people because most of them dont reappear after a couple of days.

(This is the territory of the 3/6 multi-tablers up to the 10/20).

Really a more ideal environment is to be higher up. Say 75/150. Which would need a roll more around 60k, but will mean you can get away with much smaller volumes (around 10-15 hours a week).

Good Luck

Welly, do u make your living playing poker???

Fascinating post (and especially the responses). You have made a decision for me guys....I will NOT becoming a pro. Too much like hard work if you ask me, although I agree the rewards can be breathtaking. Lots of good advice guys...

MackemMan

I have made around 5 grand in a month and a few weeks from 50$. From what I have learned if you are looking to profit big MTT tourneys around 26$ and up are where its at. Yes you can be consistent online in SnG and cash games. However for you to earn a good income from these you have to have a large sum of money to begin with. In other words don't look to make 5 grand a month from SnG unless you have like 25K or something like that in your online BR. Cash games for you to hit big are going to be hit and miss. You need to win more huge pots then you lose, another thing that is underestimated in cash games is quitting while your ahead. A great way to stop that is to have a certain % in mind according to your buyin and when you hit that leave and if you lose it all its probably best to leave in cash games. If you follow the BR rules and are a solid player online or live I think you can make money, how much I don't know but you can definately profit over time.