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Message: [QUOTE="Poker Orifice, post: 1556942, member: 33113"] The pros you're naming seem to be mostly the well-publicized ones in the media. In my opinion, Phil Helmuth is sooooo far behind the pack of top 'nlhe tournament' players that I wouldn't even be able to guess how far down the list he would be today. imo.. players like Daniel Kelly (djk online fame) totally blow Helmuth away. There are just sooo many nlhe tournament players who I'd say are definitely above & beyond Phil's level. Have you seen some of the tournament HH's that have been posted online that Phil H. has played? (I'm not just talking about a few or a small handful where perhaps his 'read' was off, or a hero call gone wrong, etc.). I've seen posts with a ton of Phil H. HH's, that are laughed at by many. He was great in his day but I really think his game has been surpassed by 'many' (I would place dozens if not hundreds of tournament players ahead of Phil H. today). nlhe tournament player doesn't make the 'best overall poker player' anyways. Just for a small example, take a look at Phil H's NoLimit cash game. It's freak'n terrible (and all of the other pros who join him on cash tables KNOW it... he's a fish by comparison). Even just on the televised cash games with Phil H. on the tables.... he's way outclassed. Daniel N. puts it to him straight up while playing PokerAfterDark - The Cash Game,... his game/style of play just doesn't work well vs. the other good cash game players (Phil.. "Keep on raising me.. yah.. that's right. I will trap you with the nuts & you will just keep on raising away getting all of your money in bad." yah.. ok Phil.. first you have to get 'the nuts' & meanwhile you're donking off in the meantime). I like Phil H. and used to think he was a really good player (sure he's a good player... still is.. 'BUT'.. I really don't think he's even close to today's top players.... nor do the other top players out there.. especially on cash tables). Maybe hearing other pros opinions on 'who is the best' would be more valid? Pretty sure the generall consensus is that Phil is the best... no.. not Helmuth, I'm talking 'Phil Ivey' obviously (besides myself that is). [/QUOTE]

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