Cash game mentality vs. tournament mentality

GWU73 · Sep 5, 2014

Focus on:
Playing in late position
Reading hands
Playing small pots unless you have a very strong hand
Thinking long term
Be more willing to fold over pairs
Do not waste time going after the blinds unless you are playing 6 max or the blinds are nits
Go for VALUE - bluff carefully and rarely (never vs calling stations)
Aggression is KEY
Fold early, fold often

good luck

wagon596 · Sep 7, 2014

This is a very interesting thread and I've read a few of the posts. There are some good points brought up that I need to ponder before reading on. I really need to try and absorb what I've read here, because I "SUCK" at cash games.

Thanks for the thread.

dj11 · Sep 7, 2014

If we are thinking about this theoretically, the only difference is that we can not buy back into most tourneys.

The other almost significant idea is that in Ring, we will often be sitting at a table with players we have lots of numbers on. Much less so in a public tourney.

tbdbitl · Sep 7, 2014

Kimpel17 said:
...Even when I'm low in a cash game (10-20bb) I find myself shoving more often than raising to open. ...

I never understand this mentality of getting short and playing jam fold poker in a cash game. If you lose a few hands and get short, top off. I have seen many times while playing live where people buy in for 100BB, let themselves get down to 15 BB until they are felted and then buy in again for 100BB.

You will rarely see me get below 60 BB. I buy in for 100BB when I get down to that 60BB mark I will buy another 50BB. I never want to play short stacked in a cash game.

slash407 · Sep 7, 2014

tbdbitl said:
I never understand this mentality of getting short and playing jam fold poker in a cash game. If you lose a few hands and get short, top off. I have seen many times while playing live where people buy in for 100BB, let themselves get down to 15 BB until they are felted and then buy in again for 100BB.

You will rarely see me get below 60 BB. I buy in for 100BB when I get down to that 60BB mark I will buy another 50BB. I never want to play short stacked in a cash game.

i hate it. the sites should force high minimums and forced top ups. some players even come into the table with a small amount. i hate when you have a strong hand and a player with a small stack makes a big bet to scare away everyone else

steviewayne69 · Sep 8, 2014

interestingly enough I try to look for the people with MTT mentalities at my table and play in position with a strong hand, I usually get them to fold pre or after the flop with 3x bets, because of the image I build early in the game: when I have something good I bet. Unfortunately as many of you pointed out, that doesn't matter when people push. I find most usually push with AK suited, QQ, KK and AA preflop if shortstacked hoping that one of the donks will come along. If it only costs me 20% or less I'll consider calling, as flatting shows strength to them regardless of position. Case and point, guy shoved with 66 in MP, it was only $20 at a 1/2, I look down at 88, and it would only cost 9% of my stack, I flatted and a guy with AK suited calls. dream flop comes 383, check around, 383K, I bet 50 or bluff size, he stayed in cause he usually plays tourneys, 383K5 (rainbow), I push him all in, he calls, I announce "eights full" and show my hand, AK shows, and we're down two players. So additionally to the point about doing the right thing at the wrong time, sometimes doing the wrong thing at the right time helps as well.

PapaC · Sep 9, 2014

Tournys vs Ring Games

Yesterday I played 2 tournys and did nothing right, so the rule I set for myself not to over rebuy came into play and I just went out. However, I also played some ring games and I done real well. Won all my buyin back and much more. On other days I have done real good in tournys and do nothing right at ring tables. Does anyone else have this happen to them?

joe777 · Sep 9, 2014

Ring game had the lowest variances in contrast to tourney that had the highest variances.But many people choose to play Mtts because of the high payout.

dj11 · Sep 9, 2014

The problem with auto top-off is that most players, me included, don't want to be keeping mental track of where we are with our bankrolls at any particular point in time.

Now, your first reaction is that we should not be playing if we can't afford it, and I agree. However, the nature of any game where our stakes are involved dictates that we show (ourselves?) some mental discipline. It hasn't happened in like forever that I lost a huge BR in a ring game, and that is, IMHO, because I long ago put a stop loss on my game, and I did that first by NOT allowing auto top-off.

And yes, I understand how exploitable that is. However, I am playing poker more for the enjoyment and less for the money. They are NOT mutually exclusive.

mycophile · Sep 9, 2014

From my experience, ring games require more aggressive post-flop play. Small-ball poker generally yields great results in tournaments, at least in the early stages where you can afford to gamble a tad and the blinds aren't killing you. (Negreanu stresses the importance of it all the time)

I don't have the balls to be super aggressive in cash games- I generally go broke. Quick. Lol. I'd stick with what makes you the most money, build a decent roll doing it then practice in other games when "learning" won't break the roll.

aaryan22 · Sep 9, 2014

tournament play is much simpler because you have much lesser desicions to make as compared to cash games.
The complexity in cash games arises because we need to decide when to quit the table? how much amount can we risk a day? what hands to play?
In tourneys anyways your buyin and initial chips will be in a certain limit,and also you need to climb the rank table to get in cash positions, so need to play more hands and risk more in critical situations. So we hardly have a choice in these aspects.

trent32la · Sep 15, 2014

Tournaments and Ring Games are the complete opposite. You'll have many situations come up in both that are never alike. Tournaments you are more in survival, there is a payout structure, and you do have to make certain unorthodox plays depending on the situation. In ring games you can definitely play much tighter and wait for spots as you are not in survival. Some advice > when you are playing ring games make sure you have auto top up on and are never below 100bbs, also instead of making a rule like "I wont rebuy if I bust my buyin" Just set a certain number of hands to play for that session or if you lose an entire stack you will leave.

floweryhead · Sep 15, 2014

I believe that people should be able to choose between auto top up or not as playing vs shortstackers is a valuable skill, however, maybe there should also be separate autotopup games for people that think that way. I doubt I'd be playing them though

biff22 · Sep 15, 2014

I dabble in both. Have had some success in tourney's but am on a week long loosing streak in cash game right now. Really card dead.
Goal in tourney is to make money first, than try to climb as high as possible. Play fairly tight as feel others will make mistakes and overplay their hands.

revskip · Sep 16, 2014

Tournament play and ring play are totally different skill sets in my opinion.

In tournament play you benefit greatly from understanding ICM, push/fold concepts and when to switch gears from tight to loose depending on your chip count relative to the blinds whereas in cash those skills would be far less valuable. In cash you are rewarded for playing more aggressively post flop and can take advantage more easily of players who are seeing too many flops with weak cards. I play both although I consider myself to be a much better tournament player, I still can enjoy sitting down and playing ring games because the action is usually a little more interesting overall compared to a tournament which has long lulls.

tbdbitl · Sep 16, 2014

slash407 said:
i hate it. the sites should force high minimums and forced top ups. some players even come into the table with a small amount. i hate when you have a strong hand and a player with a small stack makes a big bet to scare away everyone else

It's okay to me. I just think it forces people into playing like they are in a tournament vs folks that are playing a deeper stack cash game.

starting_at_the_bottom · Sep 17, 2014

I think MTTs are way tougher mentally. You can play well for hours win loads of pots but one small slight misread, lose a hand and you are out.

If this sequence of events happened in a cash game you would just drop a BI and still be well up for the session.

Jacki Burkhart · Sep 20, 2014

Totally different animals that only appear similar on the surface. Kind if like cross country skiing and downhill skiing. At first glance, it seems like "both are skiing. Skis. Poles. Goggles. Gloves. Snow". But really they are totally different.

I enjoy tournaments and also feel I am a better tourney player than cash player. But I will sometimes play cash: when I have a limited amount of time to play or if the cash game seems really juicy.

Ex: I played at a new club with my playing partner. The tourney was a total donk fest full of bad players. 1st place got $330 and a min cash was like $40. She busted out early and went to play the cash game that was full of the busted out bad players. I did ok in the tournament but ended up bubbling and getting nothing then I went and joined her at cash. She had already ran up her $150 buy in to $400 by the time I sat down. I did ok in the game and netted a $17 profit after my tourney fees, tips and rake. She ended up netting over $300 in profit after paying tourney fees tips and rake. At that poker club the cash game was much juicier than the stupid tournament...

AWW_DIN · Sep 28, 2014

I think a middle ground of both. playing aggressive cash games and tight tourney to mix them both up u might like the result. I find if u stick to one type of play ppl with eventually catch on to it. Its like fly fishing sometimes u need to fish a dry fly wet and a wet fly dry.

youregoodmate · Sep 28, 2014

biff22 said:
Goal in tourney is to make money first, than try to climb as high as possible. Play fairly tight as feel others will make mistakes and overplay their hands.

Actually the opposite is correct. Forget the money and drive for the final table. min-cashing is worthless when it comes to roi. It's not unnatural for a very profitable tourney player to only be in the money an average amount of time (1 in 9 or 10 for most tourneys). This is because when they do cash, they have put themselves in a better position chip-wise to run deep in the tournament.

arizoney · Oct 2, 2014

i feel whether it be mtts or ring it takes somewhat of a different mindset. for the goal of a mtt is to win the tourney and which there are different strategies. and to play ring there is a different strategies also to make profit with ones play. with both games the main goal is to make a profit and or entertainment is also a factor i presume.

LuckyBundy13 · Oct 2, 2014

A2345Razz said:
I play both profitably....and can show graphs.

Look, here is the crux of the difference...

In donkament play you WILL USUALLY be fairly shortstacked for most of the tournament which simplifies the game immensely.

Playing with 20BB is just pretty formulaic. You look for really good spots to take down blinds, you look for really good reshove spots to take advantage of overly aggy people trying to do that, and you conserve your stack in marginal spots like flatting a lot oop.

THE POKER IS PRETTY SIMPLE at low and medium stakes.

The PSYCHOLOGY is a lot harder for people to take; especially beginners.

YOU WILL LOSE ~85% OF TH TIME IN TOURNAMENTS IF YOU ARE PLAYING WELL.

YOu need to be able to be at peace with the fact that you will play well and lose....and lose....and lose again. You will get bad beated....you will get coolered....you will lose flips....you will go card dead and then run 10hi into KK in a good spot where you played perfectly shoving on the button.

That is donkament poker.

Cash game poker is much MUCH more complex.....and played with a much deeper stack usually. You don't need to be stealing blinds as much....or feeling like you need to consistently building your stack/taking risks. You can sit back and survey your opponents and what they think of you, and just play/develop your optimal game.

You can win more consistently....

You can play enough volume to know your win rate in a few months....

Its just different.

Good stuff!

rw11687 said:
Adjusted the wording of the last paragraph and continued:

So, now to the comparison for cash games. Let me caveat this by saying that poker is poker, and in a vacuum your going to play poker the same way. Your approach/philosophy to playing a hand shouldn't change, its the format and environmental factors of that format that will impact your game. As tourneys go on, you are almost certain to have your decision making impacted by a variety of items out of your control - blinds, stack size, and pot size for example. Your opening range and style of play will often vary based on these factors.

Cash games rarely introduce these types of factors in decision making. Pot committed scenarios do come up, but not without a lot of action throughout the entirety of the hand. So you can conceivably go multiple sessions without ever being pot committed. As such, cash games must be approached with extreme patience. They can seem less exciting to a tourney player as all-ins are more rare and many hands never reach a showdown. Additionally, understanding relative hand strength is a must. I often see tourney players over-value their hands in cash games when facing lead out bets or all-ins. There are no environmental factors forcing people to make moves with weaker hands, so players need to adjust their opponent ranges accordingly.

To me, the most important difference is post-flop play. Players need to focus on their opponents betting patterns/lines and really try to understand what they are doing. There are more complexities to betting patterns in cash games, mainly due to the same factors mentioned before.

I could go on but I am tired of typing

Nice post.

Including myself, I know most tourney players have always fantasized about that big tourney stack and how sweet it would be if it was a REAL CASH!

wishful thinking

theRaven68 · Oct 3, 2014

MTT and cash games require completely different playing style. In Mtts you have possibilities to win bigger money with very small buyin.

jtholdm · Oct 9, 2014

cash vs tourneys

I have learned that you can play cash games like a tourney bit not vica versa If i am in a cash game I will stop 30 min before to change gears and get my mind set right. Ina tourney you will see less hands than cash

Kongol · Oct 15, 2014

There definitely is a difference between the two, i prefer tournament because i feel like i usually make the money cut and in cash games u can loose a LOT more in 1 hand then u can in multiple tournaments

Cash game mentality vs. tournament mentality

GWU73

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