Conventional vs Unconventional poker

dmorris68 said:

Yes, bad players bluff way too much. That's largely what makes them bad players. And how do you combat that? With ABC poker. Fancy pants plays against unsophisticated opponents is the quickest road to ruin.

What I question is you suggesting to those that are learning to not put stock in ABC poker. That's a huge disservice to the new player and I would urge them NOT to listen to this advice.

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dmorris68 said:

Yes, bad players bluff way too much. That's largely what makes them bad players. And how do you combat that? With ABC poker. Fancy pants plays against unsophisticated opponents is the quickest road to ruin.

What I question is you suggesting to those that are learning to not put stock in ABC poker. That's a huge disservice to the new player and I would urge them NOT to listen to this advice.

You say you've "mastered" ABC poker, but the stakes I think you're playing and the way you express yourself lead me to question that as well. Care to post some results so we (and these learning players) can better judge that you're actually in a position of mastery to be providing this type of advice that flies in the face of all established training precedent?

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MediaBLITZ said:

Kind of my thoughts on it DM - also (and not calling out OP directly) I cannot help but wonder when someone declares something does not work (ABC poker, squeeze play, whatever) ; just how much time they gave the endeavor, and how true their understanding is of what they are trying to accomplish. Without some sort of commitment to learning it and practicing it - that's right - it won't work. My guess is you hand someone who declares ABC does not work at lower levels over to BlackRain79 for hand review and all kinds of leaks would be revealed.
But it would do us good to not be defensive (or offensive) and explore this further.

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OMGITSOVER9K said:

are you advocating 3betting regs UTG opens and min betting flops?

really?

like really really?

yeah I'll sub, why not.

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OMGITSOVER9K said:

LAG is loose and aggressive.

maniacs are 3betting UTG opens with 35 suited OOP..

I dont disagree with playing LAG I just think 3betting tight ranges OOP is retarded.

this at 6max or FR?

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AlfieAA said:

Nice thread, subbed, and I agree with OP that ABC poker is incredibly boring, but it has to be done at the micros....although I do like to be unconventional if I think I can get away with it lol

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vinylspiros said:

the reason that ABC works good only at the micros is cause people dont have anything to lose. they think : "well,i played it by the book i reraised, i hit Top Pair Top Kicker i assume i can comfortably call the all in". if you got 2000 dollars in front of you,or even 200 you have to put a little bit more thought into what is going on and what you might be up against.thats where my creepy theory comes into play. abnormal plays with unusual bets that make them start thinking about laying down the better hands sometimes.

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AlfieAA said:

The reason it works at the micros is because most of them are 1st level thinkers so there's no point in getting fancy...you can't bluff a fish...the higher the limits the more something extra is added to the thinking...I.e 2nl limp/call/call/call, 5nl raise/3bet/call/check....and so on...would you really snap call an AI with TPTK?....what things do you take into consideration when making that decision?

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dmorris68 said:

And what are you guys calling ABC poker anyway? ABC poker would including raising and re-raising at appropriate times. And rarely limping. Just because you make aggressive plays doesn't mean it's not ABC poker. They're just more about value than outplaying your opponent.

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dmorris68 said:

Micros run from 2NL to around 25NL, depending on who you ask. Some consider 50NL as still micros.

Nobody is calling you a bad player (well, I wasn't, I don't know anything about your play). I'm not attacking you, I'm attacking your argument. Certainly you are free to give your opinion here. But when you give an opinion, prepare to receive a few in return. Especially if you make a statement that flies in the face of convention, then you need to be prepared to defend it.

As many of us have said, ABC poker is not intended to be used at all stakes against all skill levels. It won't work everywhere -- any good player will see you playing ABC and exploit you.

What I've yet to see is evidence that you've progressed beyond the point where ABC is obsolete. Maybe you have, and if so, great, but I can't really see it judging by the type of posts you make. Nothing wrong with them, but they don't seem to be the posts of a top player either, certainly not a "master" of poker (ABC or otherwise). Then you're telling those new to poker to ignore what the rest of the poker training industry, including expert players and coaches, have always told them. To get any respect with that advice, you'd need a helluva compelling argument backed up by a lot of results, and I've not seen either. ABC on the other hand, has proven itself to be the best strategy at the micro stakes.

This is a forum where a lot of beginners look for advice, and I cringe at the thought of suggesting that someone learning poker should not be playing ABC first or that there's something wrong with it. They need to master the fundamentals before they're wise enough to understand when to deviate from them, and as I pointed out earlier, this is true in many competitive endeavors. And it doesn't matter how sophisticated you are, when you play with largely unsophisticated players, you're wasting your time and your money being too sophisticated, because ABC is without question the most profitable line to take against those players, long term.

You said you have "mastered" ABC. Someone who has mastered ABC should have some very good results at the micros then, and be happy to prove it. Someone mentioned BlackRain79 -- it would be hard to find a better "master" of the micro stakes anywhere. Ask him what he thinks about ditching ABC poker at the micros.

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dmorris68 said:

Micros run from 2NL to around 25NL, depending on who you ask. Some consider 50NL as still micros.

Nobody is calling you a bad player (well, I wasn't, I don't know anything about your play). I'm not attacking you, I'm attacking your argument. Certainly you are free to give your opinion here. But when you give an opinion, prepare to receive a few in return. Especially if you make a statement that flies in the face of convention, then you need to be prepared to defend it.

As many of us have said, ABC poker is not intended to be used at all stakes against all skill levels. It won't work everywhere -- any good player will see you playing ABC and exploit you.

What I've yet to see is evidence that you've progressed beyond the point where ABC is obsolete. Maybe you have, and if so, great, but I can't really see it judging by the type of posts you make. Nothing wrong with them, but they don't seem to be the posts of a top player either, certainly not a "master" of poker (ABC or otherwise). Then you're telling those new to poker to ignore what the rest of the poker training industry, including expert players and coaches, have always told them. To get any respect with that advice, you'd need a helluva compelling argument backed up by a lot of results, and I've not seen either. ABC on the other hand, has proven itself to be the best strategy at the micro stakes.

This is a forum where a lot of beginners look for advice, and I cringe at the thought of suggesting that someone learning poker should not be playing ABC first or that there's something wrong with it. They need to master the fundamentals before they're wise enough to understand when to deviate from them, and as I pointed out earlier, this is true in many competitive endeavors. And it doesn't matter how sophisticated you are, when you play with largely unsophisticated players, you're wasting your time and your money being too sophisticated, because ABC is without question the most profitable line to take against those players, long term.

You said you have "mastered" ABC. Someone who has mastered ABC should have some very good results at the micros then, and be happy to prove it. Someone mentioned BlackRain79 -- it would be hard to find a better "master" of the micro stakes anywhere. Ask him what he thinks about ditching ABC poker at the micros.

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AlfieAA said:

My interpretation of ABC poker at 2nl anyway is TAG, strong starting hands in EP x4 open raise ..then start widening the starting hand range the nearer you get to the BTN....folding marginals in EP, raising marginals in MP if folded round to you...stealing from the CO,BTN and SB with a wide range...only limping if you are in LP or SB with SC's and PP's...cbetting depending on flop texture...no donk betting unless you hit a full house OTF.....if you have a hand, then value bet all streets relentlessly ...if you dont have a hand check/fold.....very basic explanation here and I'm sure I could put it abit better if I wasn't tired....but the moral of the story is, NEVER BLUFF AT THE MICROS!!!!.....leave the polarization and merging for 50nl>

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dmorris68 said:

Well first of all, as Hamm said, you're seeing a very selective portion of hands played, and the ones typically picked for television because of the "drama" of the play.

Next, you're talking about the top 1% (or less) of the players. For the other 99% of us, starting with the fundamentals and putting in the hours applying them allows us to gain enough experience to know when unconventional moves can work, but trying before you're to that point is typically disastrous.

It's like any other skill-based endeavor, be it golf or baseball or billiards. A lot of top pro golfers have unconventional techniques that you'd never try to teach someone new to the game. Same goes for billiards, a lot of top pros have unconventional strokes that would totally screw up a beginner trying to imitate them. These guys have put in years and years of practice to overcome the flaws in technique.

Top players also, more often than not, just have a lot of natural talent and can use it to overcome those flaws that the rest of us cannot.

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NeverEnough said:

Don't forget that they don't care if they lose the $ like the rest of us.

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Beanfacekilla said:

ABC poker works against bad players. They are at level 1 with their thinking (what do I have, that is all they consider).

They simply don't notice you have folded for 3 orbits. They don't think about ranges. They often don't even notice 4 to a flush on board when they have 2 pair or a set.

But when you play against good players, ABC is exploitable. It is the non standard plays that get you paid off against better players sometimes IMO.

Which brings me to adaptation. A good player will change his game as necessary to make money from different types of opponents. I think that is what OP is trying to say maybe.

The game I play is $200 nl live. These players are some of the worst players out there. Online micro players are better. ABC works just fine most of the time. However, if I come up against some solid players, I will switch it up. I have to keep them wondering.

Anyways, good thread.

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