Dealer error

big jingles · Nov 8, 2008

I was playing at the Borgata in a $300 Friday tournament with 362 players.
We were near the money bubble when the following hand happened:
utg had 3.5 bb and goes allin, he is called by a middle position player with 6 bb the sm blind goes allin with 11 bb and the bb calls he had about 20 bb's.
utg has Aces, middle pos had 10's, sb had AQs and BB had Kings, the board comes out Ace and 4 rags no flush. The dealer gives utg his pot and pushes the remaining chips to the BB with his kings, Sb leaves the room mumbling.
The dealer starts washing the cards and someone wants to know how Kings beat aces.
What should happen now? The wrong person was awarded the chips. Can anything be done now? Should the floor be called? The dealer said theres nothing he can do now. The person getting the chips was one of the best players at the table so I didn't want him to get the chips. I thought the chips should go to the sb eveh if he left. I didn't want to push the issue because I didn't know the right way to handle it.
Any advice for future reference.

NSC44 · Nov 8, 2008

That is a very sticky situation.I would say contact the tournament manager,and get it all sorted out,as it would be most ethical thing to do. Of course imo

Tammy · Nov 8, 2008

BB won the side pots. UTG does not have a stake in the side pots, because he only had 3.5 bb. So UTG would have only won the main pot, and BB would have won both side pots, since he had everyone covered in chips, and would have chips in all the pots.

Rememberthis1 · Nov 8, 2008

^But the SB had AQ and an ace was on the board, thus giving him a better hands then kings. For some reason the dealer awarded the BB the side pot instead of the SB.

jaymorin123 · Nov 9, 2008

Damn thats a tuff situation , nothing like that ever happened to me so i dont know what i woulda done...

Tammy · Nov 9, 2008

Rememberthis1 said:
^But the SB had AQ and an ace was on the board, thus giving him a better hands then kings. For some reason the dealer awarded the BB the side pot instead of the SB.

Oh, damn, you're right. Wow, how could SB just walk away like that?

ythelongface · Nov 9, 2008

i dont see any harm in calling the tournament director over. what he/she says is final, and obviously they do have cameras, so im sure they could at least look into it.

nevadanick · Nov 9, 2008

juiceeQ said:
BB won the side pots. UTG does not have a stake in the side pots, because he only had 3.5 bb. So UTG would have only won the main pot, and BB would have won both side pots, since he had everyone covered in chips, and would have chips in all the pots.

Remeberthis is right. SB should have gotten the whole side pot. BB had SB (11BB) covered, but there were no bets higher than 11BB. Mid-pos 10,10 gets nada. UTG gets main pot. BB should get nada.

At a live table, sometimes ya gotta be quick. If there is ever a question, someone has to immediately call for the pit mgr/tourn director. Just because the player stood up, doesn't mean he loses the pot. It's easy to call out for the player and re-direct the chips to him.

Even if the player was out of sight, the pit should have been advised. They will always come over and ask for details on what happened. Then it is up to them to make the decision. That's what they are there for.

It's usually easy to determine how many chips were involved. At 'most' tables, as play progresses, the dealer will announce, 'all-in for 2100... allin for 2900.... all-in for 4200.... (then BB) calls. He's not 'all-in' since SB is already highest all-in. Someone, if not all of the players, will know what the bets were.

jyow · Nov 9, 2008

tough for the sb but it is partly his fault for not realizing that his had was best here. if he were concentrating he would have picked up on it immediately and the situation would not have come about.

CfPoker · Nov 10, 2008

This isn't actually that hard.

As long as you can clearly remember what the pot totals were then the SB wins with his ace (for the sidepot, not the main pot of course). It sounds like you've remembered the exact totals so as long as other people on the table can agree then there's no problem. Otherwise, hopefully there's a security camera.

This mistake can be corrected before the start of the next hand. A hand beings with the first riffle of the cards, not the wash, so in this case we can still correct the mistake. If the dealer has already started riffling the cards by the time someone points out the mistake then nothing can be done as we have at this point now moved on to the next hand.

CfPoker · Nov 10, 2008

jyow said:
tough for the sb but it is partly his fault for not realizing that his had was best here. if he were concentrating he would have picked up on it immediately and the situation would not have come about.

Well yes, but people make mistakes, and that's why there are rules in place to protect players from them in certain situations such as this.

pokerpincher · Nov 10, 2008

You would definitely want to get the pit manager involved. They should be able to 1- stop any further hands from being dealt, and 2- review the issue. If they couldn't resolve it by talking to the dealer and parties involved, the "eyes in the sky" should be able to resolve it.

BC7Falcons7 · Nov 10, 2008

wow

Wow. Thats obviously the dealers fault. Did the sb with AQs not say anything? I know I would have!

OzExorcist · Nov 10, 2008

If the dealer is claiming that nothing can be done then the tournament director needs to be called. I don't know what rules exactly the Borgata follows but it's a major casino and I can only assume they follow the TDA rules.

TDA Rule 29 deals with this situation:

Dealers cannot kill a winning hand that was tabled and was obviously the winning hand. Players are encouraged to assist in reading tabled hands if it appears that an error is about to be made.

In this situation there are three pots: a 14BB pot between the big and small blinds (the second side pot), a 7.5BB pot between the blinds and the middle position player (the first side pot), and the 14BBish (depending on whether there are antes or not) main pot between all four players.

The small blind's AQs is obviously the winning hand for the first two pots, and it's obviously been tabled if you know what he had. If they follow the TDA rule, the dealer cannot kill that hand, and the tournament director should be able to reconstruct the pot and award the chips to their rightful owner.

In that case, UTG keeps his 14BB pot, and the 21.5BB that were shipped to the big blind get given to the small blind. Probably while someone runs after him and yelling "Sir, sir, you still have chips". Don't laugh, I've read about it happening at the WSOP more than once.

FWIW too, I can see how this happened - in a situation with multiple side pots, I was always taught to start with the last side pot: the one between the players that started with the most money. If the dealer had've done that, I think he probably would've gotten it right. It should've run like this:

- AQ for a pair of aces beats kings, and takes the second side pot. Therefore the big blind won't win any money in this hand, and his cards get mucked.

- AQ for a pair of aces beats tens, and takes the first side pot. The middle position player won't win any money and is eliminated, his cards get mucked.

- AA for three of a kind beats a pair of aces, and takes the main pot.

If your recollection is correct, the dealer worked the pot backwards by starting with the main pot.

Maybe I'm not one to talk because I only deal corporate functions and pub games (though from one point of view, this gives me a lot of experience working out whacky hands with five side pots - casino dealers will rarely see that). But if you start with the main pot you're stuck in the mindset that people need to beat three aces for the other pots, and your thinking can get a little messy.

100% dealer error then. It happens, we're human, but someone absolutely needs to call the tournament director over if the dealer isn't willing to fix the situation. Especially if there are several of you at the table in agreement about what happened and there's no "he said she said" to the situation.

big jingles · Nov 11, 2008

Thanks for all the info, if I ever face something like this again I will call for the floor. I thought that was the right thing to do but I wasn't in the hand and don't like to but in, trust the dealer. My thinking was if you don't care about your chips why should I. The ironic part was this guy knocked me out in 11th place a couple hours later.

raines42 · Nov 11, 2008

That sucks. It always seems the guy who should be out knocks me out... that is why I hate re-buys... that one dude who goes all in 30 times will eventually come back to knock me out.. I would of said something... That dude who should have lost the hand certainly would of knocked me out later

philliespokerclub · Nov 13, 2008

big jingles said:
I was playing at the Borgata in a $300 Friday tournament with 362 players.
We were near the money bubble when the following hand happened:
utg had 3.5 bb and goes allin, he is called by a middle position player with 6 bb the sm blind goes allin with 11 bb and the bb calls he had about 20 bb's.
utg has Aces, middle pos had 10's, sb had AQs and BB had Kings, the board comes out Ace and 4 rags no flush. The dealer gives utg his pot and pushes the remaining chips to the BB with his kings, Sb leaves the room mumbling.
The dealer starts washing the cards and someone wants to know how Kings beat aces.
What should happen now? The wrong person was awarded the chips. Can anything be done now? Should the floor be called? The dealer said theres nothing he can do now. The person getting the chips was one of the best players at the table so I didn't want him to get the chips. I thought the chips should go to the sb eveh if he left. I didn't want to push the issue because I didn't know the right way to handle it.
Any advice for future reference.

If it happens to you call FLOOR IMMEDIATELY. If it happens to someone else... its a sticky situation... I would keep myu mouth shut so I dont start anything. If A-q walks away and doesnt know he has something then... its his fault Thats what happened to me in a toruney and the dealer started dealing and they couldnt do anything.

OzExorcist · Nov 13, 2008

philliespokerclub said:
If it happens to someone else... its a sticky situation... I would keep myu mouth shut so I dont start anything.

Even if it is someone else it's happening to, and not you (I think it's taken for granted that OP would say something if it was him that had his pot taken away from him), the rule still encourages you to speak up: Players are encouraged to assist in reading tabled hands if it appears that an error is about to be made.

royalflush525 · Nov 13, 2008

I would say call tournament manager and get it fixed. Because it can be fixed, it might take a few but it could be done. I myself would have said wait a freaking min what is going on them r my chips, and i would have not left until resolved if i had to stop the whole tournament.

Ranger390 · Nov 13, 2008

I've seen dealer error a few times and once it potentially cost me a huge pot in a ring game. (But, I will still never play at an electronic table in a casino.) Last weekend we had a dealer error at my ring game. The floor was called over and said that he could review the security tapes and, in about 10 minutes, render a verdict. Since it was a small pot, the two guys agreed to chop it. In the case of a tournament hand, I would certainly have asked the floor to review the tapes.

thebiatch22 · Nov 13, 2008

well i feel the guy with the aces should have paid a bit more attention cause i know when im in a hand i watch to see who is winning the hand me or not and had the dealer of called that the kings won if i had the aces i would of spoke up than and asked how the hell he beat me there is no way i would of got up and just walked away

OzExorcist · Nov 13, 2008

thebiatch22 said:
well i feel the guy with the aces should have paid a bit more attention cause i know when im in a hand i watch to see who is winning the hand me or not and had the dealer of called that the kings won if i had the aces i would of spoke up than and asked how the hell he beat me there is no way i would of got up and just walked away

In an ordinary pot, sure - it's obvious that AQ with an ace and four blanks on the board beats KK. Remember that there were three seperate pots and a better hand was involved though. That's likely what's confused people, the dealer included.

I strongly suspect that the small blind either wasn't paying attention to the stack sizes and didn't realise which pots he was in the running for, or just got confused by the whole side pot process.

As a dealer, it's amazing to see how little attention some players seem to pay to what's happening at the table (even professionals). I wasn't kidding before, I've read about a couple of cases where people have walked away from their seat in the Main Event, believing themselves to be eliminated, and it's taken someone else at the table to speak up and say "Erm... AJ vs A8 on a T7T44 board is a split pot, shouldn't someone go chase that guy down and tell him to get back here?!?"

Dealer error

big jingles

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NSC44

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Tammy

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Rememberthis1

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jaymorin123

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Tammy

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ythelongface

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nevadanick

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jyow

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CfPoker

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OzExorcist

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big jingles

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OzExorcist

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