Good players, or fish?

dudemanstan · Jul 8, 2013

I have started playing against some good solid players recently, and it seems to me that they are easier to play against then donks/fish. I seem to get a read on them better. I think I will stick to playing good players.

What about you? Would you rather play at a table full of average to good players, or a table of fish? Thanks.

Boocha · Jul 8, 2013

You will definitely get easier reads from "good players" but those players will not be making as many mistakes. Mistakes are where you make money. You will get better money (albeit with greater variance sometimes) playing fish.

buelithekid · Jul 8, 2013

u can handle fishes.u have to look on your own and keep cool.

but its easy to say,i know....
u can do a bluff sometimes,but here at online poker its horrorable,tried bluffs in EVERY hand.
in real life they wouldnt bluff so many times!

Nathan Williams · Jul 8, 2013

Heard this sentiment many times. You should always want to play against bad players if winning at poker is your goal. They will be by far the biggest contributors to your winrate. Good players are playing tight and not handing away money like the fish do.

Yes, bad players can be harder to read at times and deal you some frustrating beats also but this is actually a good thing as it keeps them coming back again and again. Just play lots of hands against them especially in position and bet big and often when you have something decent like top pair or better. Don't ever try to bluff them.

IntenseHeat · Jul 8, 2013

Let's first be clear that not every unorthodox player is a donk. Also, fish and donks are two very different types of players. I'd rather play against fish than good players, but I would rather play against good players than donks.

kanselau · Jul 8, 2013

dudemanstan said:
I have started playing against some good solid players recently, and it seems to me that they are easier to play against then donks/fish. I seem to get a read on them better. I think I will stick to playing good players.

What about you? Would you rather play at a table full of average to good players, or a table of fish? Thanks.

If you cant beat the fish then good luck on beating the sharks . They will eat you alive .
To beat a fish you 1 don't bluff 2 value bet them to death .
Different opponents require different strategy's but the fish is where most of your profit will come .

MK8 · Jul 8, 2013

Just think about it logically. When you talk about playing against a fish, you mean playing against a player who loses a lot of money and makes poor decisions. When you talk about playing against a good player, I think you're meaning a player who is likely winning money and making better decision. So let's rephrase the question: Would you rather play against a player who is losing money and making poor decisions or winning money and making good decisions?

Vs a fish, don't try to 'outplay' him. Just play a relatively strong range vs him and value bet large amounts. If he bluffs a lot, tighten your starting hands and call down a bit lighter and profit.

dudemanstan · Jul 8, 2013

kanselau said:
If you cant beat the fish then good luck on beating the sharks . They will eat you alive .
To beat a fish you 1 don't bluff 2 value bet them to death .
Different opponents require different strategy's but the fish is where most of your profit will come .

I did not say I couldn't beat fish https://www.cardschat.com/forum/pok...ns-46/making-final-table-consistently-226372/

I just like playing good players.

XXPXXP · Jul 8, 2013

The first thing is that

some fish style player....looks like they are fish...but ....when u check their cash 500K hand history, they have a very decent winning rate.

so they are trying to think what is good and what is bad. Even they looks like fish, but still they are good player.

____________

the "good" play u referred in the post, as I think, may be a kind of mechanic style. so makes them easy to read. they just try to , how to say, grinding on the table , and waiting for real fish to come and pay them.

_______

So, just make sure that , the player play a fish style is a real fish....LOL

Henreiman · Jul 8, 2013

Bring me all the fish. They may get me for a bit early on, but once I figure out why they are a fish (too loose, too passive, too tight, too scared) it's all +$$$ from there.

DunningKruger · Jul 8, 2013

If they're easier to play against than fish then they're not particularly good lol.

I hear this said every once in awhile... by people who aren't talking about good players so much as they actually mean predictable players who play relatively static games and are probably either weak/tight, nut peddlers, and/or aren't that strong at hand reading yet. Actual "good" players are not in any way easy to play against. Not only will you find they have a tendency to turn over a very slightly better hand than you during most showdowns but their non showdown winnings at the table will exceed yours as well.

bullishwwd · Jul 8, 2013

Boocha said:
You will definitely get easier reads from "good players" but those players will not be making as many mistakes. Mistakes are where you make money. You will get better money (albeit with greater variance sometimes) playing fish.

Exactly ! BTW, along those same lines, you'll actually get an even better 'read' playing against a "BOT". GL on the felts ... YOU will get better yourself playing with better competition (as long as you don't allow the big "T" to enter the picture). If you want to improve your game, play with the better players (like our Cardschat League). If you want to win more...play with poor players and take advantage of their weaknesses.

JaguarJT · Jul 9, 2013

DunningKruger said:
If they're easier to play against than fish then they're not particularly good lol.
I hear this said every once in awhile... by people who aren't talking about good players so much as they actually mean predictable players who play relatively static games and are probably either weak/tight, nut peddlers, and/or aren't that strong at hand reading yet. Actual "good" players are not in any way easy to play against. Not only will you find they have a tendency to turn over a very slightly better hand than you during most showdowns but their non showdown winnings at the table will exceed yours as well.

I like what you said here, very true and often misperceived. In a short enough term a great player can seem to you like a fish as well, as they will 3 bet lighter etc.

coelho2013 · Jul 9, 2013

I prefer to play with good players the donks usually has a high degree of luck during the tournament and always take wrong decisions at the end of the right.

Arjonius · Jul 9, 2013

It's a no-brainer as long as your primary goal is to win money. Play against the worst possible opponents. It can be difficult or even impossible to know what they're doing since they don't really know themselves. But will they make more plays / decisions that work out well for them or that don't? Overwhelmingly the latter. which translates into solid profits for you, the occasional frustrating losing session notwithstanding.

When your primary goal is to learn / improve, that's a different matter.

Propane Goat · Jul 9, 2013

The good, solid players also are much more likely than fish to be able to find and exploit any leaks that you have in your own game, I wouldn't be surprised if you find that over the long haul your chip stack keeps dwindling against them no matter how hard you try. The fish only look at their own cards and what is on the board most of the time. When I go up against someone who is better than I am, which is the vast majority of the poker population, I'm once again reminded of how little I know.

ScottieDuncan · Jul 9, 2013

IntenseHeat has stated my sentiments to a T. Good Job.

doncaster · Jul 11, 2013

Negraneau a good player?You will say YES...but what is a good player?I watched him play(and eventually win )the Aussie Millions here 2013 in my home town Melbourne.He hit middle pair and the other player lead out with a big bet,hitting the Ace .Daniel called the turn,and missed.The player lead out again and the GOOD player called and luckily hit his 2nd pair to win the hand.So..is this a good player or just another lucky player???

Loki · Jul 11, 2013

Table of fish ofcourse. I mean I am mostly in it for the money, and if you know how to beat a fish there is no easier way to get money. If however you are in the game to learn to play better poker then playing better players is the way you go. I play a lot of live games where both fish and good players appear. I learned a lot from the good players like when to limp raise, c-bet, some reading tips especially like seeing when someone defends their top pair or doesnt defend meaning they dont usually have it, etc... i mean you get so much information its crazy. live games are the way to go.

xlmnx · Jul 13, 2013

Until you see the flop no hand is bad and i will stand behind this 100%. I like to fish for trout but you can also find me in the river with small cards.

KingCurtis · Jul 13, 2013

Ummmm?

KingCurtis · Jul 13, 2013

hakalas said:
The first thing is that

many many fish..

Could you elaborate?

DunningKruger · Jul 13, 2013

xlmnx said:
Until you see the flop no hand is bad and i will stand behind this 100%. I like to fish for trout but you can also find me in the river with small cards.

ScottishMatt · Jul 13, 2013

^^ haha

You know we have a fish in the thread when DK gets the GIFs out.

Aleksei · Jul 13, 2013

Bad players aren't hard to read it's just that their ranges are so wide barreling them becomes a crapshoot, so you'll get coolered more frequently if you try to go for thin value. Your winrate will still be really really good usually, so long as you DON'T TRY TO BLUFF THEM!!!!

Good players, or fish?

dudemanstan

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Boocha

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buelithekid

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XXPXXP

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