Hellmuth folding QQ.

sometimes you have fold those card like AA , AK, AQ, AJ when you didnt get any pair at the flop

i guess foldin QQ is a good thing sometimes even when u have a raiser and a rerasier because you don't wanna go up to AA KK or even AK when u have a gut feelin u gotta trust ur instinct

Yeah I'am still shocked never seen some 1 fold QQ b4 flop exspecialy to a little bet like that. Think it was dumb but you never know what could have happend. Spades or the A

But calling Phil the best NLHE player is way off base as he really isn't even close. I honestly beleive that most online mid-stakes regulars would have an edge over Phil in a cash game.

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Ok, are we talking cash game play or tournament play? Phil Hellmuth is easy among the best NLHE Tournament players in the world. The stats speak for themselves.

there have been plenty of times I WISH I would have folded them pre flop.lost my butt to many times as the matter of fact today had a set of queens from the flop and what comes on the river and gives the game to someone else an ACE he had pocket Aces and I had Queens so see maybe he had a hunch LOL

CAPT. ZIGZAG said:

I watched Phil on Poker After Dark take down an entire table of top pros, IN ONE EPISODE. Maybe it wasn't PAD, but one of them shows.

It was masterful. He just sat there and played his game with his hands over his mouth like he does. Suddenly, in the middle of a hand, he threw the whole timbre of the game off with some BS insurance side bet on the hand. He took down that hand and then went on to just devastate the table after that.

He took the last two out in one hand.

Yeah, he whines. And I hate it. But, oddly enough, I usually agree with his complaint. Just not the delivery.

But, no doubt, he can sit at any table. :icon_sant


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You forgot to mention that he sucked out BIG TIME 3 times in a row to win it. Same thing happened in his other PAD win.

Helmuth is just not good enough to play with the very best.

11 time bracelet winner, 8th on all time money list..great player.

well he probably felt the kid had ace king or something and figured the ace would hit the flop and put him out just because you have high pocket pair does not always mean you will win the hand and he probably was not ready to risk going out

thebiatch22 said:

well he probably felt the kid had ace king or something and figured the ace would hit the flop and put him out just because you have high pocket pair does not always mean you will win the hand and he probably was not ready to risk going out

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Trust me, if he thought he had AK, he would have at least called, seen a flop and shoved if A or K doesn't hit. Of course folding QQ sometimes is a brilliant play, but not against AQ it isn't lol.

I have folded KK preflop, showed it and the guy showed me AA. I still lost a lot of chips in the hand though. It wasn't like I didn't go down without a fight. I bet, got raised by an extremely tight player. I reraised and he shoved all in. Making a fold like that either makes you look genius or moron. This time Phil was a moron. Don't get me wrong though, he is definitely one of the best players in the world.

If you watch the rest of that PAD episode, he picks up many huge hands later on, so it didn't really affect him laying that one down. He gets AA and KK a couple times each.

I really hate him. Just a bad fold imo. I really would like to know what he was thinking when he folded.

I think that guy is just BS. He folds QQ but bluffs vs. KK with 27 offsute he is just really wierd.
and i do hate him too!

Oh gosh! What a dumbass! He is the small stack and have QQ, what was going on in his head. I already had knew that he's a bit crazy but now I know he's stupid, too! In his spot he have to go all-in even if the other on have AA or KK.

This is all about being the great Phil Hellmuth making the amazing laydown against AA or KK. Like in the wsop when he had AK, up against AA, a A flopped and he folded. Then went on the whole 'I can dodge bullets baby' speech.
He's a very good player, but he annoys the hell out of me. The things is now, he's more Phil Hellmuth the image, rather than Phil Hellmuth the poker player.

Dorkus Malorkus said:

best nlhe tournament player ever imo.

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I agree!

Phil gets so upset in my opinion because he has been playing for SOOO long and the game has changed. Look in the archives of poker, you don't see people getting beat like they do today. Don't get me wrong, everybody plays different hands different ways and they always have, but today the game is different and I don't think Phil has accepted that.
The guy gets beat up on all the time and he does get too upset when he has good hands and gets raised, and pushed around, but I think he gets so upset because in his mind the other guy is playing crap (in his opinion).

Phil beats himself up and works himself up more than anything else. He is his own worst enemy, no matter how many people punch him in the face!

Phil is a great player!!! I don't know if I agree with his choice in this situation. However, he doesn't know what the hole cards are. If I were in that situation I would've atleast called and prayed an A or K didn't flop.

So typical Hellmuth
Lose with the worst hand and he complains and yet he folds the best hand and he looks STOONED !
hahahahaha

He played the hand perfectly. By "play" I mean prop up his own image, get his grandstanding posted on the internet and discussed in forums. If he had been right about the AA or KK he'd be able to brag about it for years.

He felt he had a reasonable read and didn't want to take the chance while he still had enough chips to play. It's not like he was down to 3xBB. We've all done similar, though perhaps not with QQ.

QQ is a good hand preflop but not a REALLY good hand. Especually if it requires all in pre flop when you are deep in a tournament. you never know they could always have KK or AA, and even AK is just as good, at least see a flop, then make your tournament decision

chelooo said:

I think that guy is just BS. He folds QQ but bluffs vs. KK with 27 offsute he is just really wierd.

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Completely different circumstances - I assume the seven-deuce hand you're talking about is the one against Matusow on High Stakes Poker?

QQ was in a tournament. 72 was in a cash game, with a bounty on winning with 72 and against an opponent that he knew 1: probably wasn't putting him on a bluff and 2: only had one buy-in with him.

That said, folding QQ in that spot still seems pretty awful. People have noted (correctly, I think) that one of the things that frustrates Hellmuth is that the game has changed since he started playing it. You'd think by now he'd come to realise that people have worked out he'll fold queens and maybe even kings preflop if you put enough pressure on him, so people have started reraising him light.

Yes, his results speak for themselves. Yes, he has a lot of bracelets and yes, he's one of the top NLHE donkament players in the world. But how may would Johnny Chan or Doyle Brunson have if they played as many tournaments as Hellmuth did? As it is they've played a lot less and they're only one behind.

everyone needs to stop hating on phil. one of the greatest poker players to ever play the game and y'all are gonnaa sit here and bash him. so what. he folded pocket Q's. he didn know the kid very well, probly thought the kid had KK or AA and for all we know the kid may very well of had one of those. guess we will never know. but one thing we do know is that phil hellmuth knows poker. 11 WSOP bracelets????????? nuff said

couldnt beliee he didt instashove here. when he has a strong hand he usually instashoves. at the very least he shoulda called the 1800 and saw a flop

Is the $20,000 buyin for PAD ($120,000 to winner) more important, or is the couple million views on Youtube that video will get more imporant? Phil knows the answer.

Umm....

Okay....

Why isn't anyone mentioning the fact that Phil is a complete visual media whore and him folding in that spot may have had very little to do with actual poker (if you think losing 20K or winning 120K makes much of a difference in Phils life you are wrong) and more do with him staying on the show longer.

He has made himself into a brand through media exposure. He plays different on camera then off of it, almost any pro I have heard talk about phil will mention this.

I am not sure if the extra exposure on TV that he gained from this fold made his brand/him was a +EV move ...honestly I just think he is a narcissist that loves the attention. Either way I don't think Phil thought laying the queens down was the optimal play.

My fav moment of those group of episodes was when the kid hit the straight and went into his "phil with the knuckles to the cheecks" position and then checked.... I lol'ed


OK edit: I hadn't read sprangers post ...obv I agree with him

Id have to disagree that it was a bad lay down, theres only 1 queen left in the deck but 3 aces, all hed have to do is hit one ace and the chances of Phil hitting the queen are soo low. I absolutely dont care what anyone says, id say it was an amazing lay down considering one of his queens was in the other players hands.

brandonnj said:

Id have to disagree that it was a bad lay down, theres only 1 queen left in the deck but 3 aces, all hed have to do is hit one ace and the chances of Phil hitting the queen are soo low. I absolutely dont care what anyone says, id say it was an amazing lay down considering one of his queens was in the other players hands.

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LOL

All he would have to do is hit one ace? QQ against AQ is a 65% favorite. You consider that an amazing lay down? LOL of course the guy could hit a three outer and drastically change the odds in his favor. Do you think that is a common thing to hit a three outer though? I feel dumb for even replying to this post. Even Phil Helmuth would tell you he made a bonehead fold if he knew the guy had AQ. He would be flattered that you're on his side and feeding his ego, but any poker player on the planet with common sense would say that was a bad fold. (including Helmuth)

The problem with your post is that you're trying to argue a fact. That being a bad fold is not an opinion, it is a fact. You are bringing too much luck factor into the equation. I understand that some players go strictly by feel and don't understand (or care about) the math, but anytime you got a guy drawing to three outs you take it. Are you telling me you're folding KK preflop because you're worried AK might be out there? lol no, you're not. Phil might have not wanted to race against a possible AK with his QQ, but if he knew the guy had AQ his chips would have been in there no doubt.

You are obviously a very pessimistic person by thinking that one of Phil's queens being in the other guy's hand was a bad thing. That's what made Phil such a big favorite is exactly that fact. You are already thinking about Phil needing to hit a one outer before the guy even hits his three outer. Trust me, Phil doesn't care how many queens are in the deck, he just needs to avoid an ace. You must think you get a lot of bad beats or something. You need to think more positive.