I fold 44 in MTT..then see 44 on flop. Would I have seen same flop if I Called?

WEC · Jul 13, 2009

Who knows the right answer and why?

I have 44 and insta-fold to a preflop raiser. Then I bemoan my fold when I see 44 hit the flop. Now, is this guaranteed to be the same flop if I took a few seconds to think about it and called? What if one or two less/more players called because of my call?

Curious of correct answer

pantin007 · Jul 13, 2009

it doesnt matter

and the cards do not change based on time taken to play hand

Ashaman725 · Jul 13, 2009

pantin007 said:
it doesnt matter

and the cards do not change based on time taken to play hand

He is right, your actions don't change anything here. Now if you play 5 card draw or 7 card stud, then the cards would be different if you folded vs calling.

WarEagle1266 · Jul 13, 2009

The card order is determined before the hole cards are dealt, so there is nothing to change it, just like in live poker, the cards are shuffled then dealt.

SeanyJ · Jul 13, 2009

Pokerstars is decided before the hand is dealt.

Full Tilt changes depending on who folded and all that jazz.

Other sites I don't know.

Cheezymadman · Jul 13, 2009

WarEagle1266 said:
The card order is determined before the hole cards are dealt, so there is nothing to change it, just like in live poker, the cards are shuffled then dealt.

Is that why I've seen quads twice in the same day, once having all four Jacks on the board, and once three queens with the other one in the hole?

online poker is rigged, and I think anyone who doubts that is either dumb or naive.

EDIT: As SeanyJ stated, FTP is nowhere near "random". My experience is with Full Tilt, so your mileage may vary.

zachvac · Jul 13, 2009

lol it doesn't matter. Unless at the point you were deciding to call/fold you had information about what would happen if you wait. The odds of you getting quads if you don't wait and not getting them if you do wait and the odds of you getting them if you wait and not getting them if you don't wait are exactly the same.

Seriously your logic here is like saying "ugh I flipped the coin on my desk if I'd flipped it on the carpet it would have been a different result and not heads like it was on the desk. Before the flip you have no knowledge of anything, to speculate on waiting or not waiting or whatnot is just plain dumb.

SeanyJ · Jul 13, 2009

Cheezymadman said:
Is that why I've seen quads twice in the same day, once having all four Jacks on the board, and once three queens with the other one in the hole?

Online poker is rigged, and I think anyone who doubts that is either dumb or naive.

EDIT: As SeanyJ stated, FTP is nowhere near "random". My experience is with Full Tilt, so your mileage may vary.

I didn't say that it wasn't random, stop putting words in my mouth.

Cheezymadman · Jul 13, 2009

SeanyJ said:
I didn't say that it wasn't random, stop putting words in my mouth.

apologies. random wasn't the right word. but the fact that the cards change based on who's still in the hand isn't what i would call integrity on the part of the "house"

jdeliverer · Jul 13, 2009

Cheezymadman said:
apologies. random wasn't the right word. but the fact that the cards change based on who's still in the hand isn't what i would call integrity on the part of the "house"

Don't talk about what you clearly have no idea about. Full Tilt's RNG has been extensively tested and is far more random than any live casino. In fact, the fact that they do it this way makes it more safe, as it is impossible to predict what cards will come even if you hack the software. Even knowing the exact factors that are involved with the RNG is not enough as it takes data from pseudo-random entropy sources.

Cheezymadman · Jul 13, 2009

I'd rather worry about that one person hacking the RNG than have to deal with the RNG deciding who to give cards to.

OzExorcist · Jul 13, 2009

Cheezymadman said:
apologies. random wasn't the right word. but the fact that the cards change based on who's still in the hand isn't what i would call integrity on the part of the "house"

If my understanding of Full Tilt's procedure is correct you've got the wrong idea here.

What they do constantly shuffle the deck during the hand. The cards don't "change" based on who's still in the hand because they were never set in the first place. Yes, the flop is probably different if you press call after one second as opposed to pressing call after three seconds. But as Zach points out, that shouldn't make any difference to anything because the cards are still random and unknown.

The reason they constantly shuffle, AFAIK, is to do with security. If anyone ever managed to hack their system and the deck was set in advance (like at a live game or at another site like Stars) they could make a killing because they'd know what the community cards were going to be.

So to answer the OP, it depends on the site.

OzExorcist · Jul 13, 2009

Cheezymadman said:
I'd rather worry about that one person hacking the RNG than have to deal with the RNG deciding who to give cards to.

*sigh*

If you're worried about that then don't play poker on any internet site ever. Because the RNG always "decides" ("allocates" would be a much better word for this, BTW) who gets what cards - we're only talking about when it happens.

BTW - we're talking about a tournament here. What possible motivation does the site have for rigging a tournament? They've already collected all their fees and I promise you they really couldn't care less who wins the prize pool.

Cheezymadman · Jul 13, 2009

In that case, it's understandable. It makes sense to shuffle constantly to avoid people hacking it and finding out what's coming next. You can't really count cards like in blackjack, so there's nothing detrimental in that way, but I still notice more people hitting fewer outs on FTP than I do on Stars. It really makes me doubt whether or not it's 100% up and up. Sometimes it seems like people catch cards they have no business catching. But maybe I need to just sit back and say "That's poker" instead of going all conspiracy theorist. It just really burns me to see people go all-in preflop with J6 suited and hit their straight flush by the turn.

mig2169 · Jul 13, 2009

this is simple ? if ur running bad then it would be a diffrent flop. If ur making money ur fold and 44 flops, something like that. No it doesn't matter how long it is allready going to happen.

zachvac · Jul 14, 2009

Cheezymadman said:
In that case, it's understandable. It makes sense to shuffle constantly to avoid people hacking it and finding out what's coming next. You can't really count cards like in blackjack, so there's nothing detrimental in that way, but I still notice more people hitting fewer outs on FTP than I do on Stars. It really makes me doubt whether or not it's 100% up and up. Sometimes it seems like people catch cards they have no business catching. But maybe I need to just sit back and say "That's poker" instead of going all conspiracy theorist. It just really burns me to see people go all-in preflop with J6 suited and hit their straight flush by the turn.

Do you want to make a prop bet that FTP is completely random? If we can come up with a testable hypothesis on it I will bet pretty much as much as you want that FTP is on the up and up and that basically the reason you see so many people catching cards on FTP is personal memory errors as well as variance. Anyway let me know, I happen to like money and this bet would be free money to me.

WEC · Jul 14, 2009

zachvac said:
lol it doesn't matter. Unless at the point you were deciding to call/fold you had information about what would happen if you wait. The odds of you getting quads if you don't wait and not getting them if you do wait and the odds of you getting them if you wait and not getting them if you don't wait are exactly the same.

Seriously your logic here is like saying "ugh I flipped the coin on my desk if I'd flipped it on the carpet it would have been a different result and not heads like it was on the desk. Before the flip you have no knowledge of anything, to speculate on waiting or not waiting or whatnot is just plain dumb.

Not what I asked..but you seem to miss the point of many posts I have found. Especially if they are subtle questions that might require poker knowledge and some intelligence. The Point..since you need to have it brought right up for you....is the difference in RNG systems on different sites. I had heard some used continous shuffle but wasnt exactly sure if that was true.

Maybe you can reread the title and post again to see what I was asking....

WEC · Jul 14, 2009

I guess same thing with the rabbit cam....you can see the flop, but on which sites is it the real flop you would have seen.

zachvac · Jul 14, 2009

WEC said:
Not what I asked..but you seem to miss the point of many posts I have found. Especially if they are subtle questions that might require poker knowledge and some intelligence. The Point..since you need to have it brought right up for you....is the difference in RNG systems on different sites. I had heard some used continous shuffle but wasnt exactly sure if that was true.

Maybe you can reread the title and post again to see what I was asking....

Well I was responding to Cheezy too. I figured the post would be moved to rigtard thread so I didn't quote it but I guess the mods decided not to move it. But that's fine it's been answered for Stars/ftp anyway so no need to get upset over it.

ChuckTs · Jul 14, 2009

WEC said:
Especially if they are subtle questions that might require poker knowledge and some intelligence.

Wow.

CashinJen · Jul 14, 2009

Ok

Of course it would have been the same cards they don't change based on anything. The deck is already set and doesnt change. You probably did the right thing though depending on you chip size and your position. So never think about a hand you fold cause it will make you do stupid things. Once you fold forget

pantin007 · Jul 14, 2009

WEC said:
Especially if they are subtle questions that might require poker knowledge and some intelligence.

this is just rediculous to the 10th power of infinity

Surf Rat · Jul 14, 2009

Pre-hand random generators determines the order of the cards before they are dealt just as real shuffle does and this does not change through out the course of the hand...I have heard the storys before about full tilt continueally shuffleing the remaining cards in the deck dureing a hand ... which to me does not make sense as that would not follow with the ideal of simulateing REAL poker... besides its the firewalls and the continually running security software that are keeping hackers from entering the programing of a site ...with the major incident of cheating that has happened before they got the security codes and were able to install a trojan/virus that allowed them to see the other players cards.
so my answer is .... the cards would have fallen the same way ...slow played,raise,go allin, fold or call.

MercilessKiller · Jul 14, 2009

Hey guys

Just thought I'd put my input on this...

The true answer is... it is completely 100% irellevant.... I mean it couldn't be MORE irellevant.... It's like the most irellevant piece of irellevance in poker

As suggested, there are 2 ways of generating the cards.. Pre and post action. One of them means it won't make a difference.. the other mean that you could NEVER suggest a flop would have been the same if the action was the same.

But at the end of the day, poker play should not be based on the algorithms that generate the cards because at the end of the day, the result is a truly random hand such as you would experience in any casino! The reason you see crazy things like that happening is because you can very easily rack up hundreds of thousands of hands in online poker, but you may NEVER play as many in real life...

My point is... the cards fell the way they fell.. your action may or may not have had a difference, but it is certainly not more or less likely something has happened based on your action

OzExorcist · Jul 14, 2009

Surf Rat said:
I have heard the storys before about full tilt continueally shuffleing the remaining cards in the deck dureing a hand ... which to me does not make sense as that would not follow with the ideal of simulateing REAL poker...

It's the lesser of two evils. Much lesser, since it makes no practical difference to the game whatsoever.

Plus let's not get overly sentimental here. If the idea was to simulate "real" poker then all the sites are failing dismally. I don't see a single one of them with cards that occasionally turn up marked. They don't burn cards or use cutting cards. None of them allow you to string bet, and they definitely don't allow the clown in the three seat to spill his drink all over the table.

In my experience (as both a player and a dealer) those things are all integral parts of a "real" poker game. They're not reproduced online because, with the exception of burn and cut cards which are just irrelevant online, the game is better off without them. Their absence certainly doesn't take anything away from the game. Same goes for continuous shuffling IMO.

I fold 44 in MTT..then see 44 on flop. Would I have seen same flop if I Called?

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