I need some help here.

MrMuckets

MrMuckets

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  • #1
I have a friend who insists he is not getting a fair representation of deck a of cards on any poker site. He reasons that he can beat donkey all the time in private games but is constantly sucked out on in online rooms. He makes the following arguement which i am not capable of disputing but feel that you all could. :):):)

Here's a question for everyone... Poker rooms and casinos have used the same deck of cards for 200 years or more. Nothing ever changes. If the poker simulators online are accurate, then why do they keep tweaking their software year after year after year? If they have the math completely perfect, matching real decks 100%, then why the updates? I don't think the math is right online, and this logic seems to prove my point. If the poker simulators act like real decks of cards, why the need to make imporvements? Your thoughts...

He continues....

It's like the scene in A Few Good Men... "Why the two orders colonel? If Santiago wasn't in any danger, why was it necessary to transfer him off the base?" Likewise, if the poker simulators are perfect, and act just like real card decks, why the need to tweak the software year after year? Why the contradictions?
 
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ajrobin

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  • #2
Where does it say they are tweaking/improving their RNGs which control the deck? Not trying to be rude, but a link or something along those lines would be nice. As far as i know the majority of updates and tweaks are cosmetic or functionality.
 
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Dorkus Malorkus

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  • #3
umm the updates are invariably to add features, tweak bugs and glitches, fix compatibility problems and change/add graphical stuff.

i also don't think poker rooms have used the actual same decks of cards for 200 years, heh.

basically what he's saying is akin to saying "ZOMG THIS CASINO CHANGED THE COLOUR OF ITS CARPET IT MUST BE RIGGED"
 
Irexes

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  • #4
Live shuffles aren't random, for any decent definition of the term. Tell him that.
 
MrMuckets

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  • #5
I don't argue in person nearly as well as i do on paper, but i did point out all the things you say and he just dismisses me.
 
aliengenius

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  • #6
Ah, the old 'I can beat the live game so why can't I beat the online game' whine.

See my post here:

aliengenius said:
First things first: more donks do not make you lose. It might increase your variance, but playing against poor player is not going to turn you from a winning player to a losing player.

Let's look at some reasons why you might win live, but not online:

1. You are not really a winning player live. Yes, it's very possible that you misremember the amount of your wins live, unless you are disciplined enough to keep a detailed log of your live play. Pretty basic human psychology to tend to forget your loses and remember your wins. You "forget" your trips to the ATM and all those tournament sessions where you didn't cash live. Online, you can't lie to yourself: your account balance is right there in black and white, and making another deposit often involves a bit of effort that isn't easily forgotten.

Also, your live game sample may not be big enough to determine if you are a winning player yet. Statements like "I usually cash in 2 out of 3 tournaments I play live" are clearly ridiculous. This is a short term run of good luck, as not even the best players in the world can make a claim like this. But if you have only played about ten tournaments it's not out of the question that a positive variance like this could occur.

2. Live players are actually worse than online players. This has been my experience at least: $1/$2 NL live plays like one cent/two cent online. As for tournaments, if you are not doing research and seeking out a good structure, most live tournaments are much more luck contingent do to small starting stacks and fast blind levels. Without a doubt there is a higher percentage of good players online that you are likely to encounter as opposed to playing live. Your local cardroom might have a few expert players, but it's likely that you don't cross paths that often due to shear numbers, or simply them playing at different stakes than you. Not so online: there are a lot more players who know what they are doing, and that you are likely to encounter, even at the lowest stakes.

3. Less "distraction" live. You are pretty much constantly reminded that you are playing poker, where as on the computer you have different distractions like e-mail, cardschat (!), etc. Live has it's own distractions, sure (Venetian cocktail waitresses anyone :D?) but the point is that you are not going to lose your main focus of actually playing poker. There is a very clear line about "what you are doing" when you are at a cardroom: playing poker. Online, this isn't the case, as you can be multitasking to your detriment. While doing several things at once can help some people and prevent them from playing too loosely due to boredom, it can have a negative effect on others.

4. Lower stakes online. You might not take the game as seriously, or play to your "A" level if you are only playing a $5 tournament as opposed to buying in live for $120.

5. Extra removal from the actual money. It's been said that the guy who invented gambling was smart, but the guy who invented chips was a genius (or something similar to that effect). Betting is a lot easier for most people if you are putting in little pieces of round plastic as opposed to hundred dollar bills. It's similar to it being easier to overspend with a credit card as opposed to forking over cash. Online has an even further removal for the reality of it being money. This can be a positive aspect with regard to poker and making +EV decisions of course, but it can go the other way as well for some people.

6. Different skills are needed playing online. It's beyond the scope of this topic to innumerate them all here, but clearly ou have to give up things like physical "tells" skills (overrated anyway, imo), and have better statistical analysis ability when playing online. I think that most people will make a lot bigger deal of this than they should. Patter recognition (in opponents betting), both live and online, is going to give you more information more often about the strength of someones hand than seeing them twist their oreo a certain way.

7. Failure to make the strategic adjustments necessary. Your opponents play differently online than they do live. Again, it's probably beyond the scope of this topic to get into all the specific ways this occurs, suffice to say that you need adjust your game to compensate for this.

And finally:
8. You're not a winning player period. Play is much faster online, and you are able to see so many more hands or play so many more tournaments in a short period of time, that it becomes clear a lot more quickly if you are a winning player of not. Your mistakes are magnified since you will be making them far more often. In other words, playing online gets you into the long run faster, where a more accurate assessment of your skill can be seen. It takes a lot of different skill sets to win at poker, including patter recognition, logical/analytic mind, willingness to continue to study/learn/improve, discipline, etc., etc., etc., and a lot of people just are not going to have the ability or time to be winning players.
 
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  • #7
cheater button

The RNGs are random, but I've found a great way to win online. I bought one of them "cheater buttons" on eBay. It's a little online graphic which allows me to determine which cards come on the turn and river. Say I need a queen of diamonds to fill an inside royal flush. I just dial in Qd, push the button, and voila! - royal flush.

I just have to be careful not to use it too often or people get suspicious.;)
 
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juhendo

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  • #8
Most dismissals without counter-arguements are just guys in denial. I have a mate who's the same: i.e. reckons he can clean up live but goes down online. With only a few thousand hands played he's just remembering the bad beats more than the lucky wins. Thats human nature!
I've played around 10-15K hands online & have lost on the river "my fair share" of times & while I've only played a few hundred live I've lost some there too.
Also when your're playing small stakes a lot more turns/rivers are seen simply because people want to see them & can afford them. I know I've donkeyed a few rivers (especially in the first days) when the pot odds are so gone its crazy. Then the abuse starts lol.
I've played higher up on Fulltilt even though I should'nt & first thing I noticed is that there is a lot more folding before & after the flop. People can't afford to see more cards with rubbish hands.
If your friend really backs his poker skills he should up the stakes either live or online. The higher the stakes the truer the poker! I reckon!
 
roundcat

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  • #9
MrMuckets said:
I don't argue in person nearly as well as i do on paper, but i did point out all the things you say and he just dismisses me.

If you're telling the guy the facts behind why the earth is round and he relentlessly insists it's flat, there's not much you can say to change his mind.
 
P

playme1979

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  • #10
AlienGenius that is one of the best post ive seen on the debate of online poker vs live poker . I will have to admit i can play live better than i can play online ring games, but the online tournaments vs the live tournaments or sit n go's seem to be about the same.
 
Pothole

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  • #11
I admit I skipped most of this thread for one reason only, what happens live doesn't happen online. In a European casino, I play roulette ( screw 2 zero's) I play the same numbers all the time. 1 16 24 33, 6 17 27 34, 0 3 26, and the chevalls on 26, certain croupiers will hit my numbers EVERY spin, pisses me off when they triple a number and get taken off the wheel. The same can be said for live dealers, proly why most B&M casinos are moving to either mech shufflers or elect tables. To be honest, it's a good thing, you don't have to tip an elec dealer.
 
SeanyJ

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  • #12
I'm pretty sure the sites have been using the same RNG since they started, they wouldn't start the site without having a flawless RNG. The updates to the clients are just visual things, or adding new games or fixing small glitches..Nothing to do with the RNG.

You probably won't ever be able to convince your friend that he is wrong so if I were you I'd just let it go. You keep playing online and making money and he can just go play in a casino, it doesn't matter.
 
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