In NLHE, would you rather...

ph_il · Jan 15, 2016

Know the hole cards of your opponents, but not how the board will play out?

Or

Know how the board will play out, but not the hole cards of your opponents?

And why?

BigJamo · Jan 16, 2016

I recon it would be better to know the hole cards due to the diversity between them all and even if you did know the board it this that would play the major role.

makisaa · Jan 16, 2016

Know the board because it is a matter of combinatons, and even if the other player has AA I can win if I had 22 and board shows the right combination for me!

vwls · Jan 16, 2016

I agree with makisaa. I'd rather know the board. Considering all of the times that I have made the correct pre-flop fold, based on hand strength, yet would have won the hand post-flop--I think that it would be better to be able to play those hands in winning situations than to be able to play the strongest hand in an uncertain situation. Even if I could have Aces every hand, I'd still prefer to know the board. Strong starting hands are only the start. To be any good, they need to also finish strong.

Jalapano · Jan 16, 2016

Definitely rather know the board. It probably evens out in the end which would help more but if you can see when you will hit your sets or make your flushes and boat up, thats a huge advantage.

MrPink514 · Jan 16, 2016

Know my opponents whole cards, definitely. While I won't know how the board plays, I'll know if he makes a hand, and I'll know when I can bluff.

vwls · Jan 16, 2016

Good point, MrPink514. I forgot that you still get to see the board fold out in the usual way. I think different situations call for different needs. I think seeing hole cards would be better in cash games, and seeing the board would be better in tourneys, when there are many more all-in situations.

EnSabah · Jan 16, 2016

Hole cards. The flop, turn and river can change the game, but if I know the hole cars I know if am losing or winning in the moment. Even if the game change later, i can expect that. With board I can see if i will make a good hand, but dont know nothing about the players. The game is about beating them, not about making hands.

vwls · Jan 16, 2016

EnSabah said:
The game is about beating them, not about making hands.

Do you think that remains true when you have the ability to play only made hands? Does it become a different game where making hands becomes the most efficient way to "beat them"? Technically, your hole cards are a made hand, however weak (for example, Q6o is Queen-high). Knowing hole cards tells you if you are winning or losing at a particular moment, so if you are losing, then you would fold, except in situations where you could bluff. Does folding in a situation where you may not be able to bluff constitute playing to make a hand?

KingCurtis · Jan 16, 2016

On a side note. Am I the only one who has day dreamed about being able to see whole cards in live situations?

EnSabah · Jan 16, 2016

vwls said:
Do you think that remains true when you have the ability to play only made hands?
Does it become a different game where making hands becomes the most efficient way to "beat them"?
Technically, your hole cards are a made hand, however weak (for example, Q6o is Queen-high). Knowing hole cards tells you if you are winning or losing at a particular moment, so if you are losing, then you would fold, except in situations where you could bluff. Does folding in a situation where you may not be able to bluff constitute playing to make a hand?

Well, I still need to beat someone to win, even playing made hands. I know something they dont know and is a big plus for me, but my made hand still can lose. At least I can read the future board and see that coming. But still too risky.

And how strong the made hand with board reading powers I should play? Only the nuts? Then, only trips or better. I could limit too much my playing hands because I am only making one middle pair in flop but would be a winner hand if I had played.

But rethinking, I am still wrong about what I said. The game is about winning money, not about beating them (except in Tourneys

).

detroitjunkie · Jan 16, 2016

I dont understand, does this mean I NEVER get to see the board? If you know the hole cards before hand starts, you are eventually gonna see the board anyways.

Now if this is an AI call situation preflop thats a whole different story, but I think it still depends on what I am holding. If I am weak I want to know the board, if I am strong I want to know hole cards.

Here is another twist - would you want to know opponents hole cards or you own? Question dictates you can never know both.

vwls · Jan 20, 2016

detroitjunkie said:
I dont understand, does this mean I NEVER get to see the board?

That was actually my initial assumption.

detroitjunkie said:
Now if this is an AI call situation preflop thats a whole different story, but I think it still depends on what I am holding. If I am weak I want to know the board, if I am strong I want to know hole cards.

With that said, think of how much more often you are weak. Even if your VPIP is 30%, that's 70% of your hands that you have considered to be weak.

WVHillbilly · Jan 20, 2016

Hole cards ainec for me.

ph_il · Jan 21, 2016

I apologize if my first post was unclear. Let me reiterate with examples:

Would you rather be able know the hole cards of your opponents, but not know how the board will play out?

Example: Stacks are 75BBs deep. After a PFR and call, there is 18BBs in the pot. You hold 8s8c and your opponent holds Ah10h on a 8h-2h-As flop. You know they have the nut flush draw and TP, how do you proceed?

or

Would you rather be able to know how exactly the board will play out prior to it actually being played out, but you don't what your opponents are holding?

Example: This is pretty self-explanatory. You'll always know when your pairs will make sets, when your random cards will flop a boat, when the board will run 5 clubs cards while you hold AdAh, etc.

ph_il · Jan 21, 2016

Personally, I'd pick knowing the hole cards. I'll give reasons why, but I want to read more thoughts about this.

vwls · Jan 21, 2016

So, knowing the hole cards, will you still be able to see the board once it plays out in the usual way?

Regardless, I would rather know the board. I'd rather get my money in with every known set or better--even two-pair, depending on the situation. I feel like the chances of winning with a known made hand are better than winning with only the strongest starting hand.

That being said, I would rather know the hole cards if it's possible to win more in the long run by stealing blinds. If I knew exactly when to raise people out of a pot or off of a hand, then I could just do that every time the opportunity presented itself. And, if they call my raises, then any losses would be minimal, in the event that they make a better hand.

Would it be more profitable to always go to the flop with the strongest starting hand or to only play starting hands that will definitely make a better-than-two-card hand? Will I make more by knowing that my opponent has either not made a hand, or has made a worse--or will I make more by knowing that I will make a good hand?

I feel like there is an actual answer to this, depending on which is more profitable.

juliecripps · Jan 21, 2016

Know the hole cards - I think :smile:

WVHillbilly · Jan 21, 2016

vwls said:
So, knowing the hole cards, will you still be able to see the board once it plays out in the usual way?

Regardless, I would rather know the board. I'd rather get my money in with every known set or better--even two-pair, depending on the situation. I feel like the chances of winning with a known made hand are better than winning with only the strongest starting hand.

That being said, I would rather know the hole cards if it's possible to win more in the long run by stealing blinds. If I knew exactly when to raise people out of a pot or off of a hand, then I could just do that every time the opportunity presented itself. And, if they call my raises, then any losses would be minimal, in the event that they make a better hand.

Would it be more profitable to always go to the flop with the strongest starting hand or to only play starting hands that will definitely make a better-than-two-card hand? Will I make more by knowing that my opponent has either not made a hand, or has made a worse--or will I make more by knowing that I will make a good hand?

I feel like there is an actual answer to this, depending on which is more profitable.

You're almost there with your known hole cards thought process but you stopped bluffing preflop. Now think about all the pots you can steal postflop when your opponent holds the best hand but the board run out is just too scary for him to call your big bets. If I know your hole cards I really don't have to care too much about mine.

Lheticus · Jan 21, 2016

I have mixed feelings about this, but in the end I'd want board precognition for the simple reason that if you're any good and your opponent is not, which happens quite often in my "hood" of online micro stakes, you can deduce what your opponent is likely to have a lot of the time, you don't need to SEE his hole cards.

WVHillbilly · Jan 21, 2016

Lheticus said:
I have mixed feelings about this, but in the end I'd want board precognition for the simple reason that if you're any good and your opponent is not, which happens quite often in my "hood" of online micro stakes, you can deduce what your opponent is likely to have a lot of the time, you don't need to SEE his hole cards.

I assure you you'll be moving to a new upscale neighborhood with your new found spidey senses.

stevenright · Jan 21, 2016

i guess if i now what the other guy is holding i would play accordingly as i see the flop, turn and river, right? i guess all ins are just for the rivers that way, no need to play impacient with that kind of ability

Lheticus · Jan 21, 2016

WVHillbilly said:
I assure you you'll be moving to a new upscale neighborhood with your new found spidey senses.

Am I detecting sarcasm, here? Doing exactly what I'm talking about is the very name of the game of poker, sir.

TimovieMan · Jan 21, 2016

I would rather know the hole cards. That way I can play EVERY. SINGLE. STREET. with perfect knowledge of my equity.
It would no longer be gambling, but being the casino - the odds forever in your favour.
You can value-bet to death with the best hand, never have to pay off a better hand, and get to steal a LOT of pots if you both miss.

Knowing the board gives far less info. Yes, you'll know that your deuces are making a set, but you still don't know if you're going to be up against a stronger set or not. And if you only play when you'll have the nuts, you won't be playing many hands, imo.

freestocks · Jan 21, 2016

Hole cards. It is like asking if I would rather have XRay vision or precognition.

In NLHE, would you rather...

ph_il

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BigJamo

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makisaa

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vwls

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Jalapano

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MrPink514

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vwls

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EnSabah

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vwls

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EnSabah

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vwls

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ph_il

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vwls

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